When should Foster go?
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@Crucial said in When should Foster go?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in When should Foster go?:
@Crucial said in When should Foster go?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in When should Foster go?:
@Crucial said in When should Foster go?:
I haven't even bothered reading the match thread.
I had been giving him a bit of rope and he has gone and tied the noose.
The whole point behind appointing Foster was that he was at the coalface and was close to observing what was going wrong and therefore how to fix it without throwing out everything and starting again. The continuity concept worked with Ted2 and with Shag.
The thinking had validity.What we have seen though is that he has worked to change one aspect (and we are showing a bit more physicality) but hasn't fixed the issue that our style relies on the other team making errors. Yes, that is a major strength of our game and will work a good portion of the time. However, others have seen that if they can cut down the errors and put huge effort and accuracy into tackling we simply don't know what to do.
It is up to the coaches to provide that 'what to do' when another team plays like England did last year or Argentina just did.
Mounga hasn't been given any tools. We rely on him pulling off a flukey bit of skill.Unless Foster and co can show that they have a clear path to building these gameplans and that they are working through them (and copping some losses along the way) then he should stand down.
At the moment it looks like exactly the same team but with Frizell told to hit people harder.
Where were the set piece moves to manipulate a hole in a rushing defence?Like kicking what should have been a routine touch finder for an attacking lineout over the deadball line? Or letting the forwards go a dozen phases then kick the ball straight at an Argie when just outside the 22?
Exactly. Those are the bits that when they don't come off, hurt you.
Those kicks are difficult and he will often get them but they should be also practising a lower risk option for that situation where we desperately needed to score. A safer kick to 10 metres out and a planned set piece from there.
Sorry, his fückups are the fault of the coach? There is plenty of ammunition to rain on Foster, but absolute brain farts from experienced players shouldn't be one of them.
And since when is a kick for the line like that difficult for a professional, test flyhalf?
Kicking for the line is fine. Pushing it to the corner has a risk especially on a shallow angle. He took a risk and didn't execute well enough.
What I am saying is that he shouldn't have to take the risk. They should be coached with a lower risk option to use in that situation. i.e. play safe and if it goes closer then fine but here's the play from 10 metres out.
To flip your theory around a good team shouldn't find things that much more difficult to run a play from 10 metres as 5. In fact the 5m play is obvious and you get a defence only 5m away.
Coaches should be providing the ammo and thought processes to make the best decisions. The players should have the skills to execute.I only agree with this to a certain extent. I think part of Foster's job should be to sit down with Mo'unga after a game and look at important decisions (like that kick) and re-evalutate. The problem is Mo'unga is a first-five eight who is supposed to lead a team around the field. This isn't NFL where there is conference after each play and you can choose what to do. We should expect a first-five who has made the All Blacks to have a good rugby brain.
I would say the errors in coaching have happened far before Foster.
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@aucklandwarlord said in When should Foster go?:
@Donsteppa - remember when the Mafia had Ian "Ferret" Foster at the top of our "know your enemy" list - circa 2004, for continual disservice to BOP players during chiefs selection?
We were well ahead of our time...
"Foster's Flops Except For Four"
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@canefan said in When should Foster go?:
Foster has already lost his first trophy, the Rugby Championship is gone
Don’t you have to be holders of the Rugby Championship to lose it...
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@ACT-Crusader yeah I think Aus hold the last 'Tri-Nations' trophy, but this is a different version anyway
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If we win in two weeks and Oz and Argies split their games, it’s possible we all finish up with 2 wins each and it will come down to bonus points and possibly points diff.
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@ACT-Crusader said in When should Foster go?:
@canefan said in When should Foster go?:
Foster has already lost his first trophy, the Rugby Championship is gone
Don’t you have to be holders of the Rugby Championship to lose it...
Failed to win then....
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@canefan said in When should Foster go?:
@ACT-Crusader said in When should Foster go?:
@canefan said in When should Foster go?:
Foster has already lost his first trophy, the Rugby Championship is gone
Don’t you have to be holders of the Rugby Championship to lose it...
Failed to win then....
Still possible for us to win it.
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@ACT-Crusader said in When should Foster go?:
@canefan said in When should Foster go?:
@ACT-Crusader said in When should Foster go?:
@canefan said in When should Foster go?:
Foster has already lost his first trophy, the Rugby Championship is gone
Don’t you have to be holders of the Rugby Championship to lose it...
Failed to win then....
Still possible for us to win it.
We have to beat the argies first....
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@canefan said in When should Foster go?:
@ACT-Crusader said in When should Foster go?:
@canefan said in When should Foster go?:
@ACT-Crusader said in When should Foster go?:
@canefan said in When should Foster go?:
Foster has already lost his first trophy, the Rugby Championship is gone
Don’t you have to be holders of the Rugby Championship to lose it...
Failed to win then....
Still possible for us to win it.
We have to beat the argies first....
Yep and we get our chance to do that in 13 days. I’m looking forward to it. They will be playing their 3rd test on the trot and I reckon we will be itching to get out after a two week period where we have stewed over last nights loss.
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@hydro11 I think that mindset is endemic in our rugby. The high risk option or the players ( coaching tactics ) that take them are often rewarded at lower levels where you get more space. However test matches can sometimes be a grind, and we don’t seem to want to do the hard work ( play the % ) for long enough. Whether it be 2 or 3 more phases or playing it tight into the 60th or 70th minute. They have to learn how to do that especially if they are behind on the scoreboard after 20.
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@kev said in When should Foster go?:
@hydro11 I think that mindset is endemic in our rugby. The high risk option or the players ( coaching tactics ) that take them are often rewarded at lower levels where you get more space. However test matches can sometimes be a grind, and we don’t seem to want to do the hard work ( play the % ) for long enough. Whether it be 2 or 3 more phases or playing it tight into the 60th or 70th minute. They have to learn how to do that especially if they are behind on the scoreboard after 20.
It is something that I have seen a lot. We wonder why we never take drop goals in high pressure situations. If you are Mo'unga or Beauden Barrett you have probably only kicked a couple in your career. You don't do it at school boy level, Mitre 10 Cup or Super Rugby. So you aren't going to have the mindset or even the ability to do it when it is 16 all in a Bledisloe test with time up.
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@hydro11 said in When should Foster go?:
We wonder why we never take drop goals in high pressure situations.
I dont mind that we dont do it alot, but by the same token, if we are happy to take a penalty when it's on offer, why not a DG opportunity, same points.
These guys should at least train for setting one up, in B1, we didnt even look like we were trying to get in position for one, we looked like we were playing for the try...every player in a 15 can take a DG, go watch any team training, every player fancies himself as a DG expert before warming up! haha
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@taniwharugby Even the coach was knocking them over, I actually had that thought when he did it, I hope you showed RM how to do it.
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@Crazy-Horse said in When should Foster go?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in When should Foster go?:
@Crucial said in When should Foster go?:
I haven't even bothered reading the match thread.
I had been giving him a bit of rope and he has gone and tied the noose.
The whole point behind appointing Foster was that he was at the coalface and was close to observing what was going wrong and therefore how to fix it without throwing out everything and starting again. The continuity concept worked with Ted2 and with Shag.
The thinking had validity.What we have seen though is that he has worked to change one aspect (and we are showing a bit more physicality) but hasn't fixed the issue that our style relies on the other team making errors. Yes, that is a major strength of our game and will work a good portion of the time. However, others have seen that if they can cut down the errors and put huge effort and accuracy into tackling we simply don't know what to do.
It is up to the coaches to provide that 'what to do' when another team plays like England did last year or Argentina just did.
Mounga hasn't been given any tools. We rely on him pulling off a flukey bit of skill.Unless Foster and co can show that they have a clear path to building these gameplans and that they are working through them (and copping some losses along the way) then he should stand down.
At the moment it looks like exactly the same team but with Frizell told to hit people harder.
Where were the set piece moves to manipulate a hole in a rushing defence?Like kicking what should have been a routine touch finder for an attacking lineout over the deadball line? Or letting the forwards go a dozen phases then kick the ball straight at an Argie when just outside the 22?
He is not the first 1st 5 to do either of those things and won't be the last. Even Carter was prone to missing touch at penalty time.
Totally agree. So was that Henry or Hanson's fault or his own? I just find it ridiculous that the coach should cop the blame for something like that.
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@Crucial said in When should Foster go?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in When should Foster go?:
@taniwharugby said in When should Foster go?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in When should Foster go?:
If coaches need to remind them of that then God help us.
not sure it's about reminding them, probably more situational awareness and playing to a structure rather than allowing everyone a bit of rope to do with as they choose, whenever, where ever on the park.
Seriously though. Coaches have to remind 10s not to kick it too hard? RM must have kicked hundreds of those during his relatively young career. Micromanaging is one thing, but that's taking the piss surely?
I do wonder if you have ever kicked a rugby ball. Or at least kicked one after 40 minutes of being smashed by forwards.
It is nowhere near as simple as 'kicking it too hard' . A few degrees off the foot and it doesn't go where you want.BTW, RM does carry lots of responsibility for that kick execution. I'm not saying that coaches should be giving him skills training. I'm saying that coaches should be getting in the players heads to be situationally aware of risk (credit @taniwharugby ) and to have other planned options trained and ready. Calm head and go to that 10m play we practiced.
Thank you for that wonderfully condescending post. I do wonder if you've ever even laced a boot.
I'm sure you would definitely have shifted the blame if the kicker had been a Barrett. The hypocrisy is absolutely hilarious.
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@Donsteppa said in When should Foster go?:
@taniwharugby said in When should Foster go?:
@canefan nothing so far suggests he is very good at CEOing.
I say end of the season, but I expect he will see out his contract because he wont step down, NZR wont terminate him, despite the hammering our 'brand' is suffering right now.
Yep, for the NZRU it’s a dilemma between damage to the brand vs the NZRU daring to ever admit that they were wrong about something.
Their misplaced pride in their “process” will win out and we’ll be stuck with Foster for at least the duration of his contract. Unfortunately.
The problem will be that, because (a) we are the All Blacks, and (b) serious international rugby will probably be somewhat limited even into next year, we'll probably win enough matches, including dishing out some hidings, next year such that Fozzie will probably still manage to do enough to justify a contract extension through to 2023. It will only be in 2023 that the powers that be finally see for themselves what a fucking disaster he is.
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@akan004 said in When should Foster go?:
@taniwharugby said in When should Foster go?:
think the point is he was kicking for the 5m lineout, that is the difficult part, but given how far out he was kicking from, he shouldnt have been going for that lower % play...irony is, if he had gone for say 10-15m out, he woulda put it into the 5m....
I know he has said that he is happy to take the risk and go for extra metres and if it doesn't come off then he can live with it. That's fine if we are in the lead or at least are in the game, however this was a crucial time in the game where we were well behind and needed to score. It was definitely not the time to take a risk. This team lacks rugby IQ and Mounga displayed that perfectly with that kick.
OK, but are his team mates and his coaches happy for him to take that risk in that match situation or indeed ever? Because if he's not been instructed to take those risks, or he's not bothered to consult anyone before taking them, then that's the kind of selfish thinking that has no place in a team sport like rugby.
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@taniwharugby said in When should Foster go?:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in When should Foster go?:
If coaches need to remind them of that then God help us.
not sure it's about reminding them, probably more situational awareness and playing to a structure rather than allowing everyone a bit of rope to do with as they choose, whenever, where ever on the park.
This to me seems to be a bit of problem that's crept in over the past few years and seems to have really amped up this year. A lot more talk this year about guys being able to "express themselves". That's fine, but if everyone is just expressing themselves, who's actually implementing the plan?
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@junior thats like any job, knowing your role and delegation levels.
Sure sometimes a deadset opening presents itself, you take it, but otherwise you stick to the plan.
If everyone is free to play it as they see it, unless they all see the same picture....
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@taniwharugby said in When should Foster go?:
@junior thats like any job, knowing your role and delegation levels.
Sure sometimes a deadset opening presents itself, you take it, but otherwise you stick to the plan.
If everyone is free to play it as they see it, unless they all see the same picture....
This team don't appear to have the strong chain of command that Henry and McCaw built, and that Hansen carried on for much of his time. All these things add up to impact results on the pitch
