The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread
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@antipodean said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@ACT-Crusader said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Your basic point is right. We are great front runners, and struggle when matched up front by teams that don't play much.
but laying that at Foster's feet is a touch disingenuous because we've been like that for a long, long time. Slow the ball, limit turnovers, kick the ball out have been the keys to beating us for ages. We have, for a long time, played a simple game that is holding the opposition, then punishing the fuck out of errors (mainly bad kicks).
We don't pick teams apart with clever ball movement. We don't roll teams in the tight in a field position game and accumulate points. We rely on ruthlessly exploiting the opportunities that come from opposition errors, and a defensive system that keeps the opposition to 20 points or less. That's AB rugby.
And that predates Hansen
yes it does. It predates Ted as well.
So I guess my point is the fix is long overdue?
I've got to ask, the fix to what? England beat us last year because that was their sole focus for four years. Even then it was close. Our winning percentage has been remarkable. Every time we've shown some hubris (Ireland) we've learned a valuable lesson and rectified it.
Fozzie basically said in the last round of interviews that we've been struggling to play in the wet for the past few years and are guilt of overplaying.
The 2015 side could switch gameplans to the point we could play like England (tight and hit drop goals) and it won us a tight semi final against the Boks in terrible conditions.
The current side reminds of 2003 where we rely on opposition mistakes and them kicking to us. If our opposition plays conservatively, or kicks well, this team is going to struggle.
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@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@antipodean said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@ACT-Crusader said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Your basic point is right. We are great front runners, and struggle when matched up front by teams that don't play much.
but laying that at Foster's feet is a touch disingenuous because we've been like that for a long, long time. Slow the ball, limit turnovers, kick the ball out have been the keys to beating us for ages. We have, for a long time, played a simple game that is holding the opposition, then punishing the fuck out of errors (mainly bad kicks).
We don't pick teams apart with clever ball movement. We don't roll teams in the tight in a field position game and accumulate points. We rely on ruthlessly exploiting the opportunities that come from opposition errors, and a defensive system that keeps the opposition to 20 points or less. That's AB rugby.
And that predates Hansen
yes it does. It predates Ted as well.
So I guess my point is the fix is long overdue?
I've got to ask, the fix to what? England beat us last year because that was their sole focus for four years. Even then it was close. Our winning percentage has been remarkable. Every time we've shown some hubris (Ireland) we've learned a valuable lesson and rectified it.
Fozzie basically said in the last round of interviews that we've been struggling to play in the wet for the past few years and are guilt of overplaying.
The 2015 side could switch gameplans to the point we could play like England (tight and hit drop goals) and it won us a tight semi final against the Boks in terrible conditions.
The current side reminds of 2003 where we rely on opposition mistakes and them kicking to us. If our opposition plays conservatively, or kicks well, this team is going to struggle.
I thought we played pretty well in the conditions on Saturday night. It was refreshing to hear Fozzie make mention of the third quarter where we didn't maintain the standard, sop he's making the right noises for me.
The reality is we don't know how good or bad the team is playing just the one opposition, how much of their errors are created by our pressure. Imagine if Covid hadn't interfered with the schedule and we were busy flogging the Welsh?
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@antipodean you can only play who's in front of you, and it was nice to see us on the front foot and dictating the game from the start for a change
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@antipodean said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@antipodean said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@ACT-Crusader said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@mariner4life said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Your basic point is right. We are great front runners, and struggle when matched up front by teams that don't play much.
but laying that at Foster's feet is a touch disingenuous because we've been like that for a long, long time. Slow the ball, limit turnovers, kick the ball out have been the keys to beating us for ages. We have, for a long time, played a simple game that is holding the opposition, then punishing the fuck out of errors (mainly bad kicks).
We don't pick teams apart with clever ball movement. We don't roll teams in the tight in a field position game and accumulate points. We rely on ruthlessly exploiting the opportunities that come from opposition errors, and a defensive system that keeps the opposition to 20 points or less. That's AB rugby.
And that predates Hansen
yes it does. It predates Ted as well.
So I guess my point is the fix is long overdue?
I've got to ask, the fix to what? England beat us last year because that was their sole focus for four years. Even then it was close. Our winning percentage has been remarkable. Every time we've shown some hubris (Ireland) we've learned a valuable lesson and rectified it.
Fozzie basically said in the last round of interviews that we've been struggling to play in the wet for the past few years and are guilt of overplaying.
The 2015 side could switch gameplans to the point we could play like England (tight and hit drop goals) and it won us a tight semi final against the Boks in terrible conditions.
The current side reminds of 2003 where we rely on opposition mistakes and them kicking to us. If our opposition plays conservatively, or kicks well, this team is going to struggle.
I thought we played pretty well in the conditions on Saturday night. It was refreshing to hear Fozzie make mention of the third quarter where we didn't maintain the standard, sop he's making the right noises for me.
The reality is we don't know how good or bad the team is playing just the one opposition, how much of their errors are created by our pressure. Imagine if Covid hadn't interfered with the schedule and we were busy flogging the Welsh?
Thought we were trying to earn the right to go wide, lots of carries by the forwards in close in and Mounga , Smith and Barrett varied the kicking game. As poor as the Ozzies were I think we have improved over 3 games.
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@DMX said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
As poor as the Ozzies were I think we have improved over 3 games.
They were inexperienced. Some really good stuff from Aus in the first test - good hard physical carries, stressed defenses, asked plenty of questions.
Feels a bit like NZ Cricket playing Australia - Aussie cricketers are just better than us, and if a couple of our stars are gone or not firing, we can get done like a dinner. Conversely, the depth in Aussie cricket is just ridiculous - it's a production line.
Overall, Foster has surpassed my (low) expectations after 3 games. He's got the backs going OK. So far a pass mark. Big questions about selection (ALB and Clarke should have been in Test 1), and what he can bring together for a tight defensive outfit like England.
Finally, for all those worrying about Englnad - don't forget Steady Eddy targetted us for about 3 years I think, and while he did bloody well against us, it wasn't sustainable. Winning a RWC is damn hard.
Edit: I'm dreaming of a draw opening up for us like SA got in '07: Fiji-Aus-Eng for a RWC would be sweet
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@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
If our opposition plays conservatively, or kicks well, this team is going to struggle.
That's an easy statement to make when you know it's pretty much not going to happen eh. Or are you worried this will happen against Arg/Aus?
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@Bones said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
If our opposition plays conservatively, or kicks well, this team is going to struggle.
That's an easy statement to make when you know it's pretty much not going to happen eh. Or are you worried this will happen against Arg/Aus?
I’d say it if it was the week before an SA or England test too. Go back over 2019 and you’ll see similar posts, some making 1991 comparisons.
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I think there are certainly some positive developments so far for Fozzie.
- Improvement from test 1 to test 3 in the kicking game tactics exploiting space
- Some signs of tactical nous exposing weaknesses in opposition (ABs attacked the shortside/blindside a lot on Saturday to great effect, Mounga's first try, Clarke's nearly try, Rieko's try etc)
- A solid midfield combination to at least build from (Goodhue 12 ALB 13)
- Exposure of rookie players all who have looked comfortable (Vaai, Clarke, Sotutu, PUJ, Hodgman)
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The aussies had a 20 yr old at 10 on debut. And a debutant at 12. Their centre is 20 also.
It's hardly a fucken victory for the ages, we know they don't have a lot of depth and that's the whole guts of the backline. To make it a fair fight we'd have to pick um who... Lincoln Mclutchie at 10, TJ Faiane at 12, and Leicester Fainganuku at 13? -
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Bones said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
If our opposition plays conservatively, or kicks well, this team is going to struggle.
That's an easy statement to make when you know it's pretty much not going to happen eh. Or are you worried this will happen against Arg/Aus?
I’d say it if it was the week before an SA or England test too. Go back over 2019 and you’ll see similar posts, some making 1991 comparisons.
Yes but it's not the week before an England or SA test, why would he play Aussie with poor tactics designed for other sides? That would be the sign of awful coaching and utterly ridiculous.
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Random thoughts ... kind of maybe contradictory but I'll throw them out there ...
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Listened to Andrew Saville and Guy Haveldt on ZB via the internerds while on my walk this morning. Was surprised at how positive they were about the All Blacks' performance. Frankly I thought we were ordinary against an ordinary opposition. Especially the 30mins after halftime. Did I miss something? (Scoreline notwithstanding .)
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I get the angst about how we seem to only be able to score off turnover. But firstly
a. scoring as soon as you get the ball is a good thing.
b. Scoring early in your possession means you don't have to create sustained pressure. Who is going to get the ball, back off, say "whoa ... we need to build pressure before we score" when we can actually score now? ABs looked good early building pressure and attacking weaknesses. Then scored a few turnover tries. We're hard markers.
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@Bones said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Bones said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@Kirwan said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
If our opposition plays conservatively, or kicks well, this team is going to struggle.
That's an easy statement to make when you know it's pretty much not going to happen eh. Or are you worried this will happen against Arg/Aus?
I’d say it if it was the week before an SA or England test too. Go back over 2019 and you’ll see similar posts, some making 1991 comparisons.
Yes but it's not the week before an England or SA test, why would he play Aussie with poor tactics designed for other sides? That would be the sign of awful coaching and utterly ridiculous.
It’s been an issue for years, and I see no sign that it’s been resolved. The first 20 of the second half showed what happens to us when a team maintains possession and makes their tackles.
Aussie can’t maintain it longer but other teams can. It’s a valid concern even against Oz and Argentina.
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Honestly would not be that shocked if we gave SA a hiding over the next time that we meet them, I would guess we are in much better shape than they are at the moment, and lets not forget we have owned them over the past 5 years (or much longer) , even if they are World champions. England hardly set the world on fire from what I saw this past weekend but would be a step up for us. France looks like the most challenging team at the moment.
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@DMX said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
Honestly would not be that shocked if we gave SA a hiding over the next time that we meet them, I would guess we are in much better shape than they are at the moment, and lets not forget we have owned them over the past 5 years (or much longer) , even if they are World champions. England hardly set the world on fire from what I saw this past weekend but would be a step up for us. France looks like the most challenging team at the moment.
Let's be honest, we can give pretty much anyone a hiding if things go even marginally better for us than they do for our opposition - we're just that kind of team.
People's quite valid concern is the team's ability to grind out a less-than-a-score win when we're held to less than 20 ourselves. Tied to that is a concern about how we use the ball when under pressure or things aren't working perfectly for us - how smart are we playing? Are we kicking intelligently? Or are we trying to go too much side to side or throw too many passe that just aren't on?
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@DMX I think we can definitely beat them but doubt that it will be a hiding. We simply don't have the pack to dominate them or England atm. How many ABs would currently make a combined AB/Bok pack? I think only Cane and Whitelock would. We have better backs though.
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@akan004 said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@DMX I think we can definitely beat them but doubt that it will be a hiding. We simply don't have the pack to dominate them or England atm. How many ABs would currently make a combined AB/Bok pack atm? I think only Cane and Whitelock would. We have better backs though.
Re Boks: I think our pack is better since we last played them, Mtawarira gone, Vermulen and Louw are up there in years. We are much stronger without Read, and have other players getting better. I think you are underrating our pack against theirs. Also they will never have the benefit of the one month preparation that they had for the world Cup, until next world Cup.
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We might be stronger in some positions but we don't have our best 14 sorted, enough locks, a totally resolved midfield, and without A Smith we are probably stuffed.
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@nostrildamus said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
We might be stronger in some positions but we don't have our best 14 sorted, enough locks, a totally resolved midfield, and without A Smith we are probably stuffed.
How is any of that different than when we beat them last?
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@DMX
teams https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2019/match/newzealand-southafrica
Arguably
3 Laulala was better last year
6 Frizzel might be better (well, specialist) than 2019 Ardie at 6
8 Sotutu better now than 2019 Read (am I allowed to say this?)
11 Clarke better now even than G Bridge then
12 Crotty better (arguably) than J Goodhue at 12
14 Reece better last year (faster anyway) than JB now -
@nostrildamus said in The 'How is Fozzie going?' thread:
@DMX
teams https://www.rugbyworldcup.com/2019/match/newzealand-southafrica
Arguably
3 Laulala was better last year
6 Frizzel might be better (well, specialist) than 2019 Ardie at 6
8 Sotutu better now than 2019 Read (am I allowed to say this?)
11 Clarke better now even than G Bridge then
12 Crotty better (arguably) than J Goodhue at 12
14 Reece better last year (faster anyway) than JB nowYou seem to be arguing much of my my case for me. I would add Ofa same as last years Laulala, Whitelock playing better, Patty T. better than Barrett, any of our two backrows better, Ritchie better otherwise backs not that different, I'll give you Crotty over Goodhue at 12.
I was also making the point that "but we don't have our best 14 sorted, enough locks, a totally resolved midfield, and without A Smith we are probably stuffed." were things you could have equally said last year.
