Coronavirus - Australia
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I think you are missing the fact that lock down is all but inevitable. So why drag it out longer than it has to be. Lock down hard, hope that everyone can get back to work sooner rather than later. Or risk delays that turn 4 or 6 weeks into 3 months
The dialogue is "up to 6 months" - they're using a classic corporate under-promise/over-deliver.
Cindy is using the reverse strategy here. Says it's 4 weeks, then she might extend it due to "new information" such as infection numbers that aren't favourable, by then everyone is used to the lock down idea
And TBH I prefer that: "4 weeks IF EVERYONE DOES THEIR FUCKING JOB" is how I take it.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Nepia said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I think it’s still all a bit wishy washy though - why are they avoiding the lockdown when they’re 90% of the way there? The UK and NZ examples show that people are still hopeless even with clear lockdowns. We’re currently no different than before except I can only talk to one mate in public at a time.
Because IMO a full lockdown would be disastrous for job losses. Think of all the people (esp in regional areas) working on building sites, roadworks, mowing lawns etc. The stuff that's 'non essential' but still quite safe and important for keeping $$$ in communities.
As @canefan says I think lockdown is inevitable, and we're getting closer and closer to it every day, but as that continues we increase the chance of community infection. But, I think not having clarity is the biggest issue, I just think people are more likely to ignore "strong advice" than directions from the govt.
It's already disastrous for job losses. Of my close knit Sydney friends there's already been four job losses (one of them worked for the Tahs so that was to be expected). I don't want any job losses obviously, but if it kicks off massively here in Sydney we're going to have those job losses anyway and the health system is going to take a battering.
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I disagree with the notion that 'a lockdown is inevitable so just do it now'.
Firstly I'm not sure it is inevitable. It seems clear the Australian Government has received different advice to the NZ Government.
But more importantly the 'it's already bad for jobs, so what's a few more?' is a bit tough on the hundreds of thousands of people who are still in construction jobs. Or landscaping or mechanics or packing shelves at Bunnings.
I don't blame the Government for trying to keep as many people in jobs for as long as possible.
With our growth rate slowing, clearly something is working. It might not be slowing fast enough, but I'm not sure there's enough evidence the 'shut it down and it will all be sweet in four weeks' theory will work any better than our current strategy.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I disagree with the notion that 'a lockdown is inevitable so just do it now'.
Firstly I'm not sure it is inevitable. It seems clear the Australian Government has received different advice to the NZ Government.
But more importantly the 'it's already bad for jobs, so what's a few more?' is a bit tough on the hundreds of thousands of people who are still in construction jobs. Or landscaping or mechanics or packing shelves at Bunnings.
I don't blame the Government for trying to keep as many people in jobs for as long as possible.
With our growth rate slowing, clearly something is working. It might not be slowing fast enough, but I'm not sure there's enough evidence the 'shut it down and it will all be sweet in four weeks' theory will work any better than our current strategy.
It's a big gamble. The only countries I can find that are not engaged in some sort of lockdown are Australia, the USA and the Netherlands (I must admit I didn't look very hard)
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
It's a big gamble. The only countries I can find that are not engaged in some sort of lockdown are Australia, the USA and the Netherlands (I must admit I didn't look very hard)
But broadly speaking we are in a lockdown. Could be splitting hairs, but... urged to stay in our homes and police have a broad range of enforcement powers to break up gatherings, move people on from public places etc.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
But more importantly the 'it's already bad for jobs, so what's a few more?'
That's bullshit, no one is saying that. No job losses are good, not the ones that have already been lost and not any that may be lost in the future.
@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
It's a big gamble. The only countries I can find that are not engaged in some sort of lockdown are Australia, the USA and the Netherlands (I must admit I didn't look very hard)
But broadly speaking we are in a lockdown. Could be splitting hairs, but... urged to stay in our homes and police have a broad range of enforcement powers to break up gatherings, move people on from public places etc.
This is part of the problem IMHO, if we are in lockdown then why aren't they saying we're in lockdown? They've given advice to not do a bunch of things, but tomorrow I can just say fuck it, they've only advised me to do this, they're not making me, II'll do grocery shopping and any other shopping if anythings open at the mall, I'll go off and buy a pot plant at Bunnings, visit a couple of mates at their houses, meet with one friend in Central Park. I can do all this currently. Hell, even if I was 75 I could still do all this. That's not a real lockdown.
This is good news though:
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I think you are missing the fact that lock down is all but inevitable. So why drag it out longer than it has to be. Lock down hard, hope that everyone can get back to work sooner rather than later. Or risk delays that turn 4 or 6 weeks into 3 months
The dialogue is "up to 6 months" - they're using a classic corporate under-promise/over-deliver.
Cindy is using the reverse strategy here. Says it's 4 weeks, then she might extend it due to "new information" such as infection numbers that aren't favourable, by then everyone is used to the lock down idea
a "minimum" of four weeks
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We're effectively in lock down.
Went for drive this arvo:
- Ms Boo Jr (Leaner driver) needed to get books out of her locker at school
- Mrs Boo needed to drop in to work to set up her new Acting GM's office.
(Mrs Boo is EA to GM at local private hospital. Have suggested to Mrs Boo that they will be swamped with the non-COVID cases from across the road, and that she's on the front line.)
Anyways, so little traffic. Went to Coles (No loo paper) and for veges and stuff. And there's nobody there.
I really don't see much difference to NZ's situation to what is happening here.
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@booboo said in Coronavirus - Australia:
We're effectively in lock down.
Went for drive this arvo:
- Ms Boo Jr (Leaner driver) needed to get books out of her locker at school
- Mrs Boo needed to drop in to work to set up her new Acting GM's office.
(Mrs Boo is EA to GM at local private hospital. Have suggested to Mrs Boo that they will be swamped with the non-COVID cases from across the road, and that she's on the front line.)
Anyways, so little traffic. Went to Coles (No loo paper) and for veges and stuff. And there's nobody there.
I really don't see much difference to NZ's situation to what is happening here.
Sounds promising
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@Nepia you hit the nail on the head. Until you call it a lockdown many people won't take it seriously. It won't stop the hardcore few but you just need people to get on board and realize they don't have a choice
It's hard to take any of this seriously when people advocate the destruction of our economy and the associated mental health damage because after two months Australia has recorded 18 deaths and less than 4000 confirmed cases (as of 1500h today). https://www.health.gov.au/news/health-alerts/novel-coronavirus-2019-ncov-health-alert/coronavirus-covid-19-current-situation-and-case-numbers#in-australia
Meanwhile cardiovascular disease accounts for a quarter of all deaths in this country and a million hospitalisations, per year.
What we should have been doing is strenuously pointing out that we should avoid old people so as not to give the weak exposure to the virus. Instead we're locking ourselves up for the foreseeable future only to kick the can down the road.
This country has lost the fucking plot and I'm seeing a pattern here: Despite being in the top 0.1% of all humans who have ever lived in terms of health, life expectancy and standard of living, people are increasingly fatalistic and given to pessimism. We've only just got over the "worst ever fire season" despite it being nothing of the fucking sort. Now we've got something else to run around crying the sky is falling.
Perhaps we all just got sick of waiting for nuclear war and the climate change apocalypse, so any panic will do.
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@antipodean I hope you are right mate. You only need to look at Italy and the USA to see how fast this can go sideways. In the case of the US they were probably a lot further along than they realised or cared to admit
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@antipodean why are you intent on putting words in our mouth. No one wants to destroy the economy.
So you think coronavirus isn’t a big deal, that’s all good I’m not going to argue our opinions over that (and maybe Australia can come out of it better than just about everyone else in the world now), but, the govt thinks it’s a big enough deal to undertake all the measures so far that have already negatively impacted the economy. The measures that are basically lockdown without calling it lockdown, the measures that have caused four of my friends And a whole bunch of others to lose their jobs ... but it may not stop the spread of the virus because they’re not mandatory.
Let’s say we get lucky and there’s not a huge community spread, then what was the point of all the measures taken so far that caused people to lose jobs? Why haven’t we just been carrying on as normal? Why isn’t the sport running now? Why aren’t the backpackers allowed on the beaches? Or did those measures stop the community spread?
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@Nepia said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean why are you intent on putting words in our mouth. No one wants to destroy the economy.
They're generic comments, not directed at anyone in particular.
So you think coronavirus isn’t a big deal, that’s all good I’m not going to argue our opinions over that (and maybe Australia can come out of it better than just about everyone else in the world now), but, the govt thinks it’s a big enough deal to undertake all the measures so far that have already negatively impacted the economy. The measures that are basically lockdown without calling it lockdown, the measures that have caused four of my friends And a whole bunch of others to lose their jobs ... but it may not stop the spread of the virus because they’re not mandatory.
I do think the virus is a big deal - for those who are likely to pay a tremendous price. My grandfather is in his 90s and I'd prefer him to stick around. Do I think his life outweighs the well being of millions of others?
Let’s say we get lucky and there’s not a huge community spread, then what was the point of all the measures taken so far that caused people to lose jobs? Why haven’t we just been carrying on as normal? Why isn’t the sport running now? Why aren’t the backpackers allowed on the beaches? Or did those measures stop the community spread?
That's asking the counter-factual which can never be proven. At best it's an academic exercise. An exercise largely played by people who aren't paying the price. I see it in my social media feeds - people who are remunerated well above the average Australian, who can WFH and make disparaging remarks about young people who are bulletproof and want to spend some time in the sun with their friends. Or other more tenuously employed who care more about whether they'll be able to continue providing a roof over the head of their families?
Especially when the government making these decisions can't advise how long this sacrifice needs to be endured.
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Sorry I’ve been coming and going on here with out reading previous comments. But I need to vent.
Today I went to the chemist to pick up my daughters prescription. It’s not a life threatening ailment but she needs it none the less.
I was absolutely disgusted by the amount of elderly people at the mall. Just treating the mall as means to get together. There was a group of women standing in the entry at the mall. You had no choice but to walk almost up against them or tell them to move. I chose the latter and it took everything I had not to scold them further. At the pharmacy 3 more women, complete strangers to each other by the sounds, had a long conversation about hair dye. All within a metre of each other.
At the Brumbies there was another group sifting through packets of hot cross buns.
I’m not buying the “these people only have so many years left. If they want to go out let them choose..” bs argument I’ve heard from some quarters.
The entire country is holding its breath to save you. Stay fucking home! There are high school seniors that will lose their ability to attend formal, play their last footy game, go to parties and turn 18 and have their first drink in a pub. But is all good Betty. You have your 15min chat about fucken cats and “oh isn’t this virus business ghastly” while selfishly ignoring that the rest of the country is slowly going bankrupt in order to save your Jurassic ass.
Yes this is a different tone to my initial comments about missing the impact on the elderly. But this has to be said. If you’re not going to help yourselves then why should the rest of us?!
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Meanwhile cardiovascular disease accounts for a quarter of all deaths in this country and a million hospitalisations, per year.
Agreed. But you don't transmit heart disease to people, so that's a bit of false equivalence.
By all means, let's have a sensible discussion about controlling it, and try to find the middle ground where we don't have everything go tits up.
At the same time, let's imagine a scenario where it rips through multiple old person's homes like wildfire, and we just shrug and say "soz fam, but some of us have lives to lead, economies to run, and trampoline venues to attend!"
Don't think scomo or GHunt will need taking those calls in a hurry.
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
That's asking the counter-factual which can never be proven
Neither side can be proven as "right". Sliding doors or whatever.
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@NTA said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Meanwhile cardiovascular disease accounts for a quarter of all deaths in this country and a million hospitalisations, per year.
Agreed. But you don't transmit heart disease to people, so that's a bit of false equivalence.
I don't think it is and the reason I say that is the vast majority of the verbiage is in the quantum of the projected toll.
In 2017, there were 160,909 deaths registered in Australia. The majority of deaths in Australia, like other developed countries, occur among older people. Sixty-six per cent of deaths registered in Australia in 2017 were among people aged 75 or over (60% for males and 73% for females). The median age at death was 78 years for males and 85 years for females. (https://www.aihw.gov.au/reports/life-expectancy-death/deaths-in-australia/contents/age-at-death)
So even if Covid 19 added to the death toll, it would still come from the same demographic and could be considered slightly premature for that cohort. It's certainly not Armageddon.
By all means, let's have a sensible discussion about controlling it, and try to find the middle ground where we don't have everything go tits up.
At the same time, let's imagine a scenario where it rips through multiple old person's homes like wildfire, and we just shrug and say "soz fam, but some of us have lives to lead, economies to run, and trampoline venues to attend!"
Don't think scomo or GHunt will need taking those calls in a hurry.
Agreed and while I'm not an expert, I am certainly swayed by those who are pointing out we're making enormous decisions without the benefit of compelling evidence.
I certainly don't care about the fortunes of politicians seeking to correct the public perception after a previous calamity. Especially when to protect the infirm etc. they impose a further burden on succeeding generations. What are the odds this country will experience another golden period to reduce our public debt?
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@raznomore said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Sorry I’ve been coming and going on here with out reading previous comments. But I need to vent.
Today I went to the chemist to pick up my daughters prescription. It’s not a life threatening ailment but she needs it none the less.
I was absolutely disgusted by the amount of elderly people at the mall. Just treating the mall as means to get together. There was a group of women standing in the entry at the mall. You had no choice but to walk almost up against them or tell them to move. I chose the latter and it took everything I had not to scold them further. At the pharmacy 3 more women, complete strangers to each other by the sounds, had a long conversation about hair dye. All within a metre of each other.
At the Brumbies there was another group sifting through packets of hot cross buns.
I’m not buying the “these people only have so many years left. If they want to go out let them choose..” bs argument I’ve heard from some quarters.
The entire country is holding its breath to save you. Stay fucking home! There are high school seniors that will lose their ability to attend formal, play their last footy game, go to parties and turn 18 and have their first drink in a pub. But is all good Betty. You have your 15min chat about fucken cats and “oh isn’t this virus business ghastly” while selfishly ignoring that the rest of the country is slowly going bankrupt in order to save your Jurassic ass.
Yes this is a different tone to my initial comments about missing the impact on the elderly. But this has to be said. If you’re not going to help yourselves then why should the rest of us?!
Where are you Raz? Sydney?
It isn't just the elderly though. Plenty of peeps younger have died too, just more predominantly oldies.
Agree with the sentiment. Maybe that's where they've got to take that extra step and label it a lock down.