2019 under 20's
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From a monetary funding POV. I'm pretty sure the Oceania U20s is a World Rugby funded comp - as it forms a part of the JWC / JWT qualifying process.
A Sanzaar U20 comp would have to be paid for by the respective unions.
Also, for a Tier 2 perspective. Fiji plus one of either Tonga or Samoa getting some games v NZ and Aus is good for them. The contact between NZ and Fiji at a junior level is at a factor of x to the power of zillion compared to NZ v Fiji at senior test level.
However - a SH U20 comp would be great if it could be paid for.
Here is my fantasy pitch to get it World Rugby funded.
Make it a JWC/JWT qualifying funnel for Oceania, Southern Africa, South America
8 teams: 2 pools of 4 > then Final (PLus play offs for 3rd, 5th , 7th) = 4 games compared to current 3. Almost guaranteed 2 hard games each for the Sanzaar big 4.Top 5 qualify for JWC.
4 SANZAAR nations (permanent members, coz we have the votes ...)
plus- 2 Oceania (Fiji, Sam, Tga play off for the 2 spots)
- 1 Africa (Nam and Zim playoff for the spot)
- 1 South America (probably Uruguay, but playoff v Brazil, Chile, Paraguay etc form this spot)
Have achieved:
- a funded tournament
- harder tournament, than current, for the big 4
- exposure for 4 Tier 2 nations v Sanzaar big 4
- Existing Continental qualifying at T2 level for those who don't make it to the SH comp.
and Uruguay would probably give a harder match than the watery custard that Samoa and Tonga put out at youth level.
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@Stargazer said in 2019 under 20's:
The only good team we're playing in that tournament is Australia
And that's no sure thing, given some of the past results
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@taniwharugby said in 2019 under 20's:
had heard from someone in the know that the team was lacking in a number of areas a month or so back, turns out he was on the money.
Discipline seemed to be the biggest thing lacking
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@KiwiMurph and in the past it’s worked for us playing in the Oceania rugby championship..would like to us take on a couple of super rugby development squads as well..I know when my nephew played against the Blues Dev back in 2017, it was a really good physical contest for the Baby Blacks .
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@MajorRage Unfortunately, Finau seems to be prone to making controversial high tackles. Remember South Africans complaining about the hit in the tweet below?
@Stargazer said in 2019 under 20's:
South Africans on twitter are complaining that Finau wasn't carded here.
His technique may need some work; he won't be escaping a red card forever. But looking at the tackle in the Welsh game shown, the tackled player just landed from a jump, so moved downward when he hit the ground. Finau seemed to try going low, just not low enough, which may also have to do with the fact that he's probably somewhere between 1.90 and 1.95m tall. I assume this was the tackle he got yellow-carded for and the Welsh wanted red?
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@Stargazer said in 2019 under 20's:
@MajorRage Unfortunately, Finau seems to be prone to making controversial high tackles. Remember South Africans complaining about the hit in the tweet below?
@Stargazer said in 2019 under 20's:
South Africans on twitter are complaining that Finau wasn't carded here.
His technique may need some work; he won't be escaping a red card forever. But looking at the tackle in the Welsh game shown, the tackled player just landed from a jump, so moved downward when he hit the ground. Finau seemed to try going low, just not low enough, which may also have to do with the fact that he's probably somewhere between 1.90 and 1.95m tall. I assume this was the tackle he got yellow-carded for and the Welsh wanted red?
Yeah, correct. The usual suspects talking about black invisibility cloaks etc. Quite a few safa's too ... although I guess the same that saw no problem with the coat hanger on Perenara.
I can see why some say red, for this, although I'm happy with the yellow. He was bloody low when he went in.
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Surely there could be more games vs. NZ senior teams as prep e.g. SR dev sides. Doesn't need to be other international u20 teams.
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All those moaners in the NH media got what they wanted ...
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It's unfortunate that we will never know whether Finau would have been cited if the Welsh/NH media had not moaned publically after the game.
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So, according to the high-tackle sanction framework:
- it's a high tackle
- direct contact between shoulder and head
- degree of danger: arm swings forward prior to contact, active/dominant tackle, high speed, tackle completed, so high risk
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I think the first two mitigating factors may apply and yellow was correct, but obviously the citing commissioner didn't see it that way:If the judiciary agrees that it should have been a red card, Finau will be looking at a mid-range suspension of 3-4 weeks.
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Clumsy, shit technique is not a mitigating factor.
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Yellow card seems about right. Again, why should the tackler be unjustly punished because people duck?
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@antipodean ducking into a tackle is a new technique, similarly jumping into a tackle.
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We're headed towards people ducking on purpose. Not to avoid tackles but to draw cards.
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There was no "ducking on purpose" in this particular tackle, though. The player jumped to catch the high ball and dropped in height while landing.
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taniwharugbyreplied to Stargazer on 19 Jun 2019, 01:42 last edited by taniwharugby 19 Jun 2019, 01:44
@Stargazer doesnt mean that people wont do this...
He is very low at contact, basically in a sitting position, tackler is high for a seated person, but if the player was standing it woulda hit him nipple line.
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I'd give that a penalty only, upgraded to a yellow seeing as we are trying to change techniques on head contact. Could have started and stayed lower.
Flow chart: > Could he have doid? Yes. Then upgrade to a card. Could he have doid on purpose? No? Keep it at a yellow.
I don't have any other comparisons from the tournament to go by. As i haven't watched. I don't watch much rugby anymore as
people keep getting sent off and binned all the time and the games suck. I need to ration my viewing to maintain any enthusiasm. -
Geez, four weeks suspension! I know I predicted this in case the citing was upheld, but I really think it's excessive in this case.
The decision isn't available on the WR website yet, but this is the summary:
Samipeni Finau (New Zealand) New Zealand reserve Samipeni Finau appeared at a hearing before an independent World Rugby Disciplinary Committee chaired by Wang Shao Ing (Singapore) along with John Langford (former Australia player) and Sarah Smith (former Scotland player) in Rosario on 19 June, 2019 having been cited by Citing Commissioner Eugene Ryan (Ireland) for striking Wales full-back Ioan Davies with the shoulder/high tackle in breach of Law 9.13 in their match at the World Rugby U20 Championship in Rosario, Argentina, on 17 June, 2019. The Disciplinary Committee received evidence from Finau, Davies, the Wales team doctor and the referee as well as submissions on behalf of the player. The Disciplinary Committee considered that this was a high tackle which contacted Davies’ head and upheld the citing. They considered this a mid-range breach of Law 9.13 which carries a six-week entry point. The Disciplinary Committee considered the player’s previously clean record, youth and inexperience to reduce the sanction by two weeks to four weeks. Finau is suspended from Saturday’s final round at the World Rugby U20 Championship until after his club’s semi-final game in Waikato on 13 July or, if his club do not qualify for the finals, Waikato’s first Mitre 10 Cup pre-season game on 26 July, 2019.
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@Stargazer Bit of a wishy washy sentence when it comes to the date. The kid is suspended in an Under 20s game and at that age he could conceivably play for his club's Premier, Premier Reserve or even Colts teams. If his club's first two teams bomb out and don't make the playoffs and their Colts do hopefully that game should count as his July 13 standdown. Incidentally there is a two week gap between the specified dates ( 13 and 26 July) but the ruling is that he must miss one additional match should his club miss out on play offs. Surely two weeks means he could conceivably miss out on two games.
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@Stargazer fuck...
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was at a Q&A session with fozzie last night.. he was asked if he was concerned about the u20 performance.
His response was that unlike other countries they treat u20's as 'developmental' vs 'high performance'. By which he meant that it's not that they don't want to win it but they want to have a wide group of players to develop and don't dedicate the time to it other countries do. but he defo had some concerns about the result.
he said he spent 3 days with the coaching staff in the lead up to the spanking from Aus.. he said after that loss Mike Kron rang him up and said 'thank fcuk you didn't spend 5 days with them!'
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@WillieTheWaiter Fozzie's time would have been better spent with the players they want to develop. The coaching staff is their biggest problem.
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You can find the decision in the Finau case here (it downloads a pdf file): https://pulse-static-files.s3.amazonaws.com/worldrugby/document/2019/06/20/63eb654e-9909-452d-aba0-8300b2cad88f/WR-Judicial-Hearing-Decision-Samipeni-Finau-190620.pdf
Here's the bit about which games have been taken into account for his suspension"
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@Stargazer said in 2019 under 20's:
Geez, four weeks suspension! I know I predicted this in case the citing was upheld, but I really think it's excessive in this case.
Hell, that's tough. I struggle where both players are dropping - if Finau was 6 inches lower it would have been a well time smashing. To start at 6 weeks for that is tough.
Ah well, modern rugby. I think you're going to see a lot of head first runners in the RWC; we shoudl lead the way in bending the rules to win. Lots of bent over running, drive a shedload of mauls from everywhere, and contest loads of high balls. The only way to force rule changes is to make them appear farcical by gaming them
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@Stargazer Or Stay away completely I am not convinced of Fosters Coaching ability.
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NZ U20s team to play Ireland for 7th place:
1 Oliver Norris
2 Shilo Klein
3 Fletcher Newell
4 Cullen Grace
5 Tupo Vaa'i
6 Kaylum Boshier (C)
7 Jeriah Mua
8 Simon Parker
9 Taufa Funaki
10 Rivez Reihana
11 Leicester Fainga'anuku
12 Quinn Tupaea
13 Billy Proctor
14 Etene Nanai Seturo
15 Cole Forbes16 Kianu Kereru-Symes
17 Robert Cobb
18 Kaliopasi Uluilakepa
19 Tamaiti Williams
20 Taine Plumtree
22 James Thompson
23 Kohan Herbert
24 Leroy Carter
25 Fergus Burke
26 Dallas McLeod
27 Chay FihakiSix players were not considered for the game due to injury and the suspension of Samipeni Finau, who was ruled out when his yellow card against Wales was upgraded to a red card. Three players have been flown from New Zealand to join the squad: Rob Cobb, Chay Fihaki and James Thompson. Keanu Kereru Symes (neck injury), Devan Flanders, Lalomilo Lalomilo (concussion), New Zealand Sevens representative Scott Gregory has a heel injury and has returned to New Zealand while George Dyer has a torn ligament in a toe and will require surgery and will be out for four to six months.
So he has a neck injury and can't play, but they still name Kereru-Symes on the bench? Or a mistake in the list, again? Or do they just write down names for the sake of naming a full bench?
NOTE the changed kick-off time of 4.00am on Sunday morning NZT. (I hope Spark Sport has noticed it, too)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/34309/new-zealand-under-20-named-for-ireland-clash
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The only thing I like about that line-up are nos. 11-14. Glad to see Burke moved to the bench, so Reihana gets another chance at 10.
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@Stargazer on a par
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Interesting to see that Robb Cobb has been called in. Weird that he wasn't in the original squad.
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@Stargazer Thought he was playing club rugby at the time, but could be the case.
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The final results of the tournament:
- France have defended their title successfully by beating Australia 24 - 23 in the Final.
- South Africa won bronze by beating Argentina 41 - 16.
- England finished in 5th place by beating Wales 45 - 26.
- New Zealand ends up in 7th place after defeating Ireland 40 - 17.
- Italy finished 9th by beating Georgia 29 - 17.
- Fiji ended the tournament in 11th place by beating Scotland 59 - 34. This last result means that Scotland drops out of the WR U20 Championship and will be relegated to the WR U20 Trophy (in 2020). Scotland will be replaced by the winner of the WR U20 Trophy, to be played for in July 2019 in Brazil.
You can find World Rugby write-up of the final day of the tournament here: https://www.world.rugby/u20/news/431641
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Christ, 7th?
Development, yes, but minimum expectations should also always be making the semis, at least.
Something very wrong with that team and it’s organization.
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@gt12 said in 2019 under 20's:
Christ, 7th?
Development, yes, but minimum expectations should also always be making the semis, at least.
Something very wrong with that team and it’s organization.
That something is Philpott, he's not a coaches
asshrectum. -
@gt12 I think the problem starts with NZR, who seem to give age grade rugby (at national level; NZ schools etc) in general, and this group in particular, very little priority. Add to that a very poor coaching staff (not just Philpott, also his assistants are low calibre), and it's a recipe for a disappointing outcome.
Frankly, I don't understand all the organisation and money put into the U19 Jock Hobbs Tournament, if you don't follow it up with a top effort being put into the U20s. I don't buy the "we focus on development, not winning" argument. Surely, if you focus on development, you still want to select the right players and see results? Don't you want to give these players a taste of success and pride in the black jersey, instead of disappointment and humiliation?
Several other countries start at schoolboy level with tests and tours; that will cost money, but if Australia can do it, why can't we (at least at U20 level)? Of course, it will be difficult to replicate what's happening in some countries, where centralisation starts early and where they have way more professional players in this age bracket (a lot of those French players play in Top 14 and Pro D2, and usually for several years already). But I think the "it's not about winning" attitude is wrong.
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