Exodus
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@Higgins said in Exodus 2019:
The way things are going all overseas professional teams will be filled with kiwis thus overseas test teams will only be able to select second echelon players for internationals in which case it won't really matter if we are left with the bare 15 players of our normal All Black test level status and ability as we should be able to cream them with that.
Eventually there will be no spots available in overseas teams to sign any more New Zealanders (or other foreign players for that matter) so any aspiring players seeking overseas contracts will virtually have to stay in NZ by dint of there being no spots available in overseas team's rosters available.Don't follow the logic of the first part of this at all. European club squads are limited to fielding 2 non-European players in a match-day squad for PRO14, Premiership, and Top 14 as well as the EPCR competitions. Non-European means born in Australia or New Zealand.
In the PRO14 (exc the 2 SA teams) for the coming 2019/20 season starting Sept, there will be 671 players across the 12 clubs. They are made up of players born in Ireland 182, Italy 68, Scotland 73, Wales 175, England 46, South Africa 33, New Zealand 32, Australia 18, Argentina 6,, Canada 2, Fiji 6, Zimbabwe 4, USA 4, Tonga 3, Spain 2, Nigeria 2, Moldova 2, and 1 from each of France, Samoa, Monaco, Namibia, Georgia, New Guinea, Romania, Portugal, Hong Kong and Albania.
That's an average of 2.6 Kiwi-born players per club within an average squad of 56 players inc academy.
As for no spots available in the future, along with the current restrictions I mentioned above, a lot of the teams have quotas on foreign-born players currently either within the overall squads or in match-day squads, and these are reducing so you'd be right on that point.
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Thanks for your answers. With the rather high reported number of South Africans, Aussies and Kiwis all on professional contracts up in Europe and Japan there must be a lot of players not getting much game time in the top sides of the clubs they are contracted to.
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@Higgins said in Exodus 2019:
Thanks for your answers. With the rather high reported number of South Africans, Aussies and Kiwis all on professional contracts up in Europe and Japan there must be a lot of players not getting much game time in the top sides of the clubs they are contracted to.
I call that a swerve from your original statement. You said Kiwis, now you’re including SA and Aussie players. Which do you want to focus on? And what exactly are these ‘rather high reported’ numbers that you speak of, and what players are not getting much game time in which top sides of clubs?
You said that “the way things are going all overseas teams will be filled with Kiwis thus...”.
Sorry for asking for specifics but this site prides itself on facts as opposed to conjecture, guesstimates and wind-off-stomach supposition.
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@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
Sorry for asking for specifics but this site prides itself on facts as opposed to conjecture
Have you logged into TSF thinking it was another site?
I mean our site banner pretty much sums it up:
Awful analysis, incorrect conclusions, zero insight since 1999.
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@Derm-McCrum
How do the European cup winning Toulon sides fit into this? Because from what I can see they all had well over 2 NZ and Aus players.Also I assume players like Jared Payne, Bundee Aki, Hadleigh Parkes etc. weren't counted as NZ players as soon as they were internationally capped? Because they are still kiwis even if they aren't counted as such.
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@mofitzy_ correct if you have citizenship of a EU or SA or PI country, you count as one of those. Poor old Leinster mate James Lowe missed out on last year's winning Heineken Cup thingy cos they already had J Gibson-Park and Fardy on their team (injuries for other 9s promoted G-P)
Toulon in 2015 had a heap of Ozzies and Kiwis, I guess the rule has been introduced since then?
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@Machpants said in Exodus 2019:
@mofitzy_ correct if you have citizenship of a EU or SA or PI country, you count as one of those. Poor old Leinster mate James Lowe missed out on last year's winning Heineken Cup thingy cos they already had J Gibson-Park and Fardy on their team (injuries for other 9s promoted G-P)
Toulon in 2015 had a heap of Ozzies and Kiwis, I guess the rule has been introduced since then?
Correct about Lowe in 17/18 season. He played the PRO14 final instead of Gibson-Park, but wasn’t picked for the H Cup final. GP didn’t make either final in 18/19 season just finished but I think that was partly due to an injury. He qualifies as European on residency grounds for next season so that won’t happen again as he’ll be needed more regularly with lead players at RWC.
The rule has been around for over a decade or more. How French teams get around it is they often contract players who have PI or other background and the player changes nationality/passport if necessary.
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@taniwharugby said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
Sorry for asking for specifics but this site prides itself on facts as opposed to conjecture
Have you logged into TSF thinking it was another site?
I mean our site banner pretty much sums it up:
Awful analysis, incorrect conclusions, zero insight since 1999.
Damn - I thought I was on The Roar....
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@mofitzy_ said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum
How do the European cup winning Toulon sides fit into this? Because from what I can see they all had well over 2 NZ and Aus players.Also I assume players like Jared Payne, Bundee Aki, Hadleigh Parkes etc. weren't counted as NZ players as soon as they were internationally capped? Because they are still kiwis even if they aren't counted as such.
As soon as they had gained 3 years continuous residency (now 5) in one or more EU countries, they didn’t count as non-European. Being capped is irrelevant to the restriction. So, a Kiwi or Aus player now has to wait five years before they can be counted as European which makes them less attractive options to hire direct from their country unless you’re a moneybags owner with more money than sense. Although, the LNR introduced lower quotas on foreign players generally in Top14 squads last season - Toulouse won the Top14 yesterday with a largely homegrown squad. Numbers to Japan are now increasing.
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@Derm-McCrum
Just looking at the 2015 European cup final and Toulon had Hayman, Ali Williams, Giteau, Drew Mitchell, Masoe in the XV and Rudi Wulf in the 23. Masoe and Wulf may be using the PI ancestry but they are still capped NZers. Possibly 2 of the others have European grannies.Point I am trying to make is there is a lot of "creative accounting" in order to make it look like there are only so many kiwis and Aussies in a team but players like Payne, Parkes or anyone with a European, PI, RSA etc. granny is still a kiwi or Aussie lost to our respective systems.
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@mofitzy_ said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum
Just looking at the 2015 European cup final and Toulon had Hayman, Ali Williams, Giteau, Drew Mitchell, Masoe in the XV and Rudi Wulf in the 23. Masoe and Wulf may be using the PI ancestry but they are still capped NZers. Possibly 2 of the others have European grannies.Point I am trying to make is there is a lot of "creative accounting" in order to make it look like there are only so many kiwis and Aussies in a team but players like Payne, Parkes or anyone with a European, PI, RSA etc. granny is still a kiwi or Aussie lost to our respective systems.
I'm not attempting to do any creative accounting. I'm simply pointing out the restrictions/quotas that exist. My original figures quoted above for PRO14 are for players born in a country - so it includes the likes of all the types you've cited in your example.
The issue of non-european restrictions is a separate one.
I partly agree with you about them being lost to their birth countries - but that's the players' choice although it doesn't always mean they are lost.
Hayman left NZ in 2007 for Newcastle and was already European-qualified by the time he joined Toulon in 2010.
Giteau left Aus in 2011 for Toulon and was there 6 years before heading to Japan. He continued to play for Wallabies after he left Aus.
Ali Williams joined Toulon for two seasons when he was 32. He would have been NE.
Drew Mitchell left in 2013 and played four seasons with Toulon - he continued to play for Wallabies. He would have been NE.
Chris Masoe was born in Samoa. Emigrated to NZ as a kid. He went to Castres for 4 years before joining Toulon.
Rudi Wulf was born in NZ, moved to Toulon in 2010, went back to NZ for a season and then went back to Toulon for three seasons, which gave him European residency . He had 4 caps for NZ in 2008.
Lobbe and other Argentine players at the time only played their careers in European clubs.
So the two NE players at Toulon in 2015 were Williams and Mitchell it would appear.Payne left for Ulster on a two year contract. He got it renewed and became 'European' by dint of being more than 3 years. I'm not making any comment on his decision to move. He met and married a NI woman there, has kids, and is now a coach at Ulster - that's his choice of life/career.
Rocky Elsom did two years with Leinster and then returned to Aus.
CJ Stander wasn't wanted by the Boks and chose to move to Munster on a two-year contract. He played well enough and got residency and then capped.Players move for playing opportunities, money, lifestyle choice, etc. It doesn't always work out and sometimes it does. Pita Ahki moved to Connacht last season as cover for Bundee Aki on test duty - he was only offered a one-year contract and relatively low salary given their playing budget. He was moved on after the year. He negotiated a new contract with Toulouse, and yesterday was part of the Top14 Final winning team.
Kane Douglas left Waratahs in 2014 to join Leinster. He just about lasted a season and returned home to Oz. He left again three seasons later for Bordeaux.
Brendon O'Connor is 29, grandparent qualified to play for England, left the Blues in 2015 for Leicester in England, and is heading back to play for Hawke's Bay next season.
Matt Toomua left for Leicester three years ago and is heading back to Melbourne Rebels in Aus for next season.I'm not suggesting the figures for players leaving aren't high - I am saying the vast majority (85-90%) of SH-born players abroad are playing in three countries - England, France and Japan.
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@Derm-McCrum
The creative accounting comes in when you say "European club squads are limited to fielding 2 non-European players in a match-day squad for PRO14, Premiership, and Top 14 as well as the EPCR competitions" then go on to list all all the various loopholes where kiwis and Aussies can bypass this. As I mentioned, these loophole players are still NZers and Aussies lost to their countries regardless. -
@mofitzy_ said in Exodus 2019:
@Derm-McCrum
The creative accounting comes in when you say "European club squads are limited to fielding 2 non-European players in a match-day squad for PRO14, Premiership, and Top 14 as well as the EPCR competitions" then go on to list all all the various loopholes where kiwis and Aussies can bypass this. As I mentioned, these loophole players are still NZers and Aussies lost to their countries regardless.Well it's not creative accounting by me. I was responding to the comments that "all overseas professional teams will be filled with kiwis thus overseas test teams....etc" I was pointing out the restrictions (never mind quotas in some countries) that are in place - which don't apply to some Aus/NZ players if they have heritage or if they have gained residency. But they apply to most of them initially. As James Lowe and Jamison Gibson Park found out at Leinster, it does limit them in the games they can play.
Last season, there were 180 NZ-born players in the 66 professional clubs in the Six Nations unions - that's an average of 2.7 players per club. Obviously some have more than others. In Wales, for example, Dragons and Ospreys have only 1 each, whereas Scarlets have 5.
The player transfers for next season in the PRO14 are pretty much complete. Leaving aside the two SA teams, the transfer activity across the 12 teams involves:
11 Irish seniors
24 Irish academy/club promoted
1 Italian senior
9 Italian academy/clubs promoted
8 Welsh seniors
9 Welsh academy promoted
5 Scottish seniors
2 Scottish academy promoted
4 NZ seniors - 3 from NZ
3 SA seniors - 1 from SA
2 Aus seniors - 1 from Aus
1 Fijian senior
1 English senior
1 Romanian senior -
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@Derm-McCrum said in Exodus 2019:
The rule has been around for over a decade or more. How French teams get around it is they often contract players who have PI or other background and the player changes nationality/passport if necessary.
This was the first sign that SBW was about to walk out on the Bulldogs. On a bye week about a month before he split he went to Samoa and got his citizenship and passport expedited.
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@Darren said in Exodus 2019:
180 NZ-born players in the 66 professional clubs in the Six Nations unions
Damm, I can't even wrap my mind around around that.
Here's the split of NZ-born from last season (I should add that it includes players who moved to other countries when kids e.g. Joey Carbery when his family moved back to Ireland or Joe Tomane who moved to Aus at 3, but there's not many of them). Equally, it doesn't include the numbers of players from Fiji, Tonga, Samoa who moved to NZ as kids:
Fra Top 14 - 47 across 14 teams
Eng Premiership - 40 - 12 teams
France PRO D2 - 33 - 16 teams
Eng Championship - 27 - 12 teams
Ireland - 13 - 4 teams
Wales - 9 - 4 teams
Scotland - 5 - 2 teams
Italy - 6 - 2 teamsI'm going to look further at the status (SR/Capped/Mire/Residency/Parentage) and age of players when they move just to see the profile or trends there. There was a further 197 SH-born players in Japan last season but I haven't worked out the nationality split yet.
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) Masoe, Comical Ali (MotM), Hernandez, Lobbe, Wulf, and Hayman 6+2 argentinians
