All Blacks v Springboks
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That was unexpected. I was at the AB v Boks game at Newlands last year and that was a thrilling match. One the Boks could've / should've won, except for the fact that the AB's just seem to have no clue how to lose, so when Francois Louw coughed up a simple ball with 2 minutes to play I fully expected this to be another close-but-no-cigar match. Fliiping delighted the defence held out though. A heroic loss is sometimes more gutting than getting smashed.
A couple of random thoughts from this Bok supporter.
On the plus side:
Good aggressive effort from especially the pack ensured that the AB's didn't always get the go-forward they have managed in the past.
Faf de Klerk is turning into a fabulous nuisance. He'd irritate the hell out of me if I he played against us.
Nice to see we can actually set up some running rugby tries.
Willie le Roux pitched up big time. Yellow card notwithstanding, one of his best games in the Bok jersey for quite some time.On the minus side:
Boks leaked 6 tries. As impressive as the defence was, especially in the last 20 min, that's still a lot of tries. Had Barrett kicked a touch better, this would be yet another loss for us.
We still don't have a convincing midfield combination. They are ok, but nothing that really asks questions of the defence.
Jessie Kriel... I am not a fan.On the realistic side:
The Boks had a good day and took pretty much every chance that came our way. The AB's made a few more mistakes than usual - whether caused by Bok pressure or simply being too used to having it all their own way I don't know - but the net result was a narrow win for the Boks. On current form , with current skill sets, the Boks remain a good few steps behind the AB's. While I am super chuffed with the result, this Bok team have a long way to go to consistently being a realistic challenger against the AB's. And I mean that in a really positive way. The team has made good strides under Rassie and there are some promising signs, but we are not close to being back towards the top of the rugby tree... yet.Thoroughly looking forward to the return game in Pretoria in 3 weeks time. I expect a hugely motivated and ruthless AB challenge up at one of their favourite SA grounds. The Boks will need to be at their best.
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@billy-webb I especially like that he appears to be just as entertaining when the camera switches to the coaches box as the last coach.
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@bones said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@billy-webb I especially like that he appears to be just as entertaining when the camera switches to the coaches box as the last coach.
I assume you mean Rassie?
He is decidedly less animated than Heyneke, but yes, certainly not a deadpan, no-emotion guy by any stretch. -
@majorrage said in All Blacks v Springboks:
If people are honest with themselves ... was anybody really that bothered by the loss?
I only managed to get the last 2o minutes live and I was tense as fark. Then as soon as DMac dropped it, I was remarkably sanguine ... in fact, I was almost happy for the Boks and their fans. The only bad thing about that loss was the FUCKING HERALD posting that "Owens mistake" shit pretty soon after.
Obviously jumped on by all and sundry outside NZ to build to the legend that is arrogant whinging All Black fans.
Don't like losing especially against the Boks.
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@billy-webb welcome back mate. On Kriel, your 10/12 combo is something to build around and find a more skillful, fleet footed centre I reckon.
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@act-crusader said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@billy-webb welcome back mate. On Kriel, your 10/12 combo is something to build around and find a more skillful, fleet footed centre I reckon.
Thanks ACT. Life has been keeping me honest and away from posting on here - although I have been reading
Agreed with your assessment on 110-12. The Jantjies, Pollard enforced combo late in the game surprisingly worked well. Still, I don't think that is the long term solution either..
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@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@chester-draws said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@chester-draws said in All Blacks v Springboks:
It's a flawed plan IMO. It's really obvious, and so the counter is not hard to figure out. I really hope we move on from it before the RWC.
I'm guessing you've not noticed our win loss ratio for the last decade?
Our dropping ratio? Yeah, I noticed.
The current style not been our plan for "a decade". You don't get to use the Carter and Cruden periods to back up how good Beauden is.
We used to play fast, but we didn't use to take the risks we take now. We didn't leave every game to deep into the second half to wrap it up.
The old plan was better. Attack at all times, sure, but be prepared to take it in to contact if nothing was going on.
Have some set plays, if possession is not yielding points. Use strike weapons other than your 1st-5 in those plays.
Take easy kicks for penalties even at 40 metres out (like what made Donald a hero -- imagine if we had chosen to not take that kick --we'd likely have lost). That was seven years ago. I think the current team would lose that match.
The cross-field kicks were much rarer too. They're typical of the new scheme -- great if they come off, but often just a turn-over of possession.
The willingness to defend for long periods is starting to slide too. Journalists can get all excited about how defence no longer wins big games in the new AB paradigm, but they're wrong.
It's just one loss. We've lost before and we'll lose again. What i don't like is that we lost while sticking to our plan.
You have to wonder if you actually watched the ABs play prior to 2017. If you're having a cry now, God knows how you handled the late 90s and early 2000s, not to mention 2007-2009.
Well, I handled those badly. Like a lot of us here.
I'm old enough to have seen this before. Best team in the world on our day, with a helter-skelter game plan. Too arrogant to play conservative rugby, like take a drop kick, because we're the best. Sound familiar?
Can Carter and Richie McCaw didn't save us in Cardiff. Having the best players in the world is no good if your game plan is prone to coming unstuck.
Of course losing now isn't that big a deal. But if we just assume it was a blip, it won't be. We lost a few dead rubber games in recent years. Now we're losing important home games.
Our best recent period was, having been humbled, when we stopped thinking we could change the way the game is played and stuck to doing the basics well.
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@chester-draws said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@rancid-schnitzel said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@chester-draws said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@antipodean said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@chester-draws said in All Blacks v Springboks:
It's a flawed plan IMO. It's really obvious, and so the counter is not hard to figure out. I really hope we move on from it before the RWC.
I'm guessing you've not noticed our win loss ratio for the last decade?
Our dropping ratio? Yeah, I noticed.
The current style not been our plan for "a decade". You don't get to use the Carter and Cruden periods to back up how good Beauden is.
We used to play fast, but we didn't use to take the risks we take now. We didn't leave every game to deep into the second half to wrap it up.
The old plan was better. Attack at all times, sure, but be prepared to take it in to contact if nothing was going on.
Have some set plays, if possession is not yielding points. Use strike weapons other than your 1st-5 in those plays.
Take easy kicks for penalties even at 40 metres out (like what made Donald a hero -- imagine if we had chosen to not take that kick --we'd likely have lost). That was seven years ago. I think the current team would lose that match.
The cross-field kicks were much rarer too. They're typical of the new scheme -- great if they come off, but often just a turn-over of possession.
The willingness to defend for long periods is starting to slide too. Journalists can get all excited about how defence no longer wins big games in the new AB paradigm, but they're wrong.
It's just one loss. We've lost before and we'll lose again. What i don't like is that we lost while sticking to our plan.
You have to wonder if you actually watched the ABs play prior to 2017. If you're having a cry now, God knows how you handled the late 90s and early 2000s, not to mention 2007-2009.
Well, I handled those badly. Like a lot of us here.
I'm old enough to have seen this before. Best team in the world on our day, with a helter-skelter game plan. Too arrogant to play conservative rugby, like take a drop kick, because we're the best. Sound familiar?
Can Carter and Richie McCaw didn't save us in Cardiff. Having the best players in the world is no good if your game plan is prone to coming unstuck.
Of course losing now isn't that big a deal. But if we just assume it was a blip, it won't be. We lost a few dead rubber games in recent years. Now we're losing important home games.
Our best recent period was, having been humbled, when we stopped thinking we could change the way the game is played and stuck to doing the basics well.
I don't imagine we'll be seeing that kind of game plan in the RWC. It'll be much tighter. Iirc BB also seems to kick much better in November and December for some reason.
Btw, I hate losing as much as anyone. If I'd had a cat, I would have kicked it. Anyone who says it's good for rugby, good for the Boks etc. can go hang. But as much as I hate it, you also have to have some perspective. The whole chicken little thing from some fans following an ab loss is utterly ridiculous. Thank God they aren't the coaches and are nowhere near the selectors' table.
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@mn5 said in All Blacks v Springboks:
Latest rankings. Cab someone explain how these work ? Full credit to S.A. but surely one won doesn't guarantee a jump of two spots?
And how the fuck are we 3rd in the world?
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@mikethesnow Cos you have a decent team.
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@chester-draws seeing a lot of posters moaning that ABs stuck with up-tempo, wide attacking approach instead of reverting to a more traditional approach (which I think means establishing forward dominance, playing field position and then going wide after earning the right to do so.)
But without Retallick (and maybe even with him) I’m not sure they could do that. Certainly on the evidence of this test, the ABs aren’t establishing forward dominance over this bok pack (and probably a fair few other international packs.)
Their strategy brought them 6 tries and a host of other near-tries. 99/100 that’s going to be more than enough. But for Dyantyi’s finger-tip it was a gnat’s ballhair away from being enough in this game.
Given relative strengths of this AB squad I’d not be spending too much time worrying that this team doesn’t play old-school rugby.
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@akan004 said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@mikethesnow Cos you have a decent team.
I guess.
But even with good results against SA (twice), Arg (twice), Scotland, France in the past 12 months we've also lost to NZ, Eng, Ire, Aus.
Aus where they are because they consisently play better oppositon than Wales?
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@mikethesnow said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@mikethesnow Cos you have a decent team.
I guess.
But even with good results against SA (twice), Arg (twice), Scotland, France in the past 12 months we've also lost to NZ, Eng, Ire, Aus.
Aus where they are because they consisently play better oppositon than Wales?
I'm guessing though, that at the time of those losses, all those teams were above Wales in the rankings? If so the points lost would not be that bad, whereas, assuming that at least some of the teams your boys beat were ranked above Wales then the points added would be that much better. It's an odd side effect of how the rankings work that teams ranked lower tend to be more susceptible to volatility.
Anyway, given recent results, I'm not sure who you would expect to be above Wales? Enjoy it while it lasts mate would be my (bitterly earned) advice.
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@mikethesnow said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@mikethesnow Cos you have a decent team.
I guess.
But even with good results against SA (twice), Arg (twice), Scotland, France in the past 12 months we've also lost to NZ, Eng, Ire, Aus.
Aus where they are because they consisently play better oppositon than Wales?
Wales performance vs Australia are the stain on Gatland's international coaching record.
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@majorrage said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@mikethesnow said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@akan004 said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@mikethesnow Cos you have a decent team.
I guess.
But even with good results against SA (twice), Arg (twice), Scotland, France in the past 12 months we've also lost to NZ, Eng, Ire, Aus.
Aus where they are because they consisently play better oppositon than Wales?
Wales performance vs Australia are the stain on Gatland's international coaching record.
I hadn't realised it was that bad. 13 on the bounce for Aus going back to 2008.
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@smuts said in All Blacks v Springboks:
@chester-draws seeing a lot of posters moaning that ABs stuck with up-tempo, wide attacking approach instead of reverting to a more traditional approach (which I think means establishing forward dominance, playing field position and then going wide after earning the right to do so.)
But without Retallick (and maybe even with him) I’m not sure they could do that. Certainly on the evidence of this test, the ABs aren’t establishing forward dominance over this bok pack (and probably a fair few other international packs.)
Their strategy brought them 6 tries and a host of other near-tries. 99/100 that’s going to be more than enough. But for Dyantyi’s finger-tip it was a gnat’s ballhair away from being enough in this game.
Given relative strengths of this AB squad I’d not be spending too much time worrying that this team doesn’t play old-school rugby.
In perspective though we shipped about 30 points to 10 at one stage, including throwing shit balls and shit options ( quick throw ins, cross field kicks in our 22).
That was unnecessary.
Most are asking for 20 minutes of position and phases as a response to not giving points away. That's all.
It's like practicing for a droppie (an oft stated tactic in2015), we need a plan b that can be used, only when needed, to alter momentum, and we need confidence in that.
How happy go lucky will be the response be were that style of loss to happen in a quarter or semi in a RWC?
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Also funny that we were a finger tip from winning but by fuck don't blame the fluffybunny that couldn't kick a conversion from throwing distance....
I don't know how to properly assess a loss like this one but was encouraged to see the hurt in the sheds afterwards, something we all could probably benefit from after such heralded dominance
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Due to lack of sleep I'll add my tuppence worth about goal kicking.
It is not the only reason we lost, and I agree wholeheartedly that conceding 5 tries and the reasons for that are much more concerning, but it was a factor and shouldn't be ignored.
Listening to the play back feature on Radio Sport on Sunday there was a real reluctance by the hosts to accept that Barrett should carry any blame (looking at you Devlin). This annoyed me. Whilst Barrett's goal kicking didn't concede 5 tries it did cost 8 points. In order to fix a problem it must be acknowledged (so that we can whinge about it and somehow convey via telepathy to the selectors the error of their ways).
I'm not advocating dropping BB as a result, but I am advocating ensuring that the best goal kicker on the field at any time is the player taking the shots. In what I think is the best backline (BFA @ 15, Naholo 14) that is BB. On Saturday it was JB and then DMac.
More generally, the rest of the world can celebrate our loss (listening to a couple of Pommie correspondents on the radio I was so pleased for them that England beat the All Blacks ...) but you've got to maintain some perspective. To win you've got to:
- Catch the ABs a little off their game. In this case at 12 nil up they started believing their own press.
- Take your own opportunities. SA created 3 excellent tries.
- Capitalise on AB errors (17 of 36 points)
- Tackle like demons. Will only work if points 1 2 & 3 are in effect. And realistically did they defend that well? They still conceded 6 tries.
I'm pissed off we lost, but of the various teams looking forward I'm happier to be an All Black fan, regardless of result, than any other.
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Thought it was a fantastic match on Saturday and well done to the bokke for a famous win.
As we saw last year, this AB side is prone to lapses in games and with so many young players in the side, who are used to winning in black it is easy to see why that is the case.
We put ourselves in a ridiculous position after being 12-0 up early in the game. that was a mixture of stupidity, poor play and attitude and the boks pounced on it.
I was pleased that we were in such a dire position early in the 2nd half that we corrected our game, and pulled them back, dominated the game and really should have won it.
that kind of experience is gold for this side.
in many ways a freak result but that is what we have experienced in world cup losses, so i am pleased this team has had a taste of this before next year so we can recongnise it happenning and respond earlier with how we play.
Interesting to see that we went very narrow on attack, I think Hansen is gearing us up to be able to playh a lot iof this at the RWC but not overplay his hand too much.
Eciting game, dissapointing but I think it has come at a good time for this side to learn and grow from it.
Privately, I think hansen will be pleased they have got such a game now.
How we respond is important.
On Barratts kicking - itgs a worry and he aint going to magically become carter. we are vulnerable in a tight contest if it comes down to kicks. at least one will
we also need to get our top forward pack through the RWC. we badly missed Retallick and we will need Moody and Coles (although i think Taylor will still start) throughout.
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@booboo said in All Blacks v Springboks:
You've got to stop worrying about the Poms and how they feel about us.
Been invited to a corporate jolly for the Pom-AB game in November at Twickenham. I'll try hard to remember your advice if The Curse of the Meldrews strikes as it did at Cardiff in 2007...
