The Semenya Rule
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
1983 vs 2019. You can't get 1983 obviously as all results we can assume are drug related.
2019 season isn't halfway through. Either way, when you graph the world record and seasonal bests for the last 19 years, there's some obvious outliers.
My aim was to show that CS pace is not naturally faster than other females ... which I think I have if I conveniently ignore 2013-2016. However, I will accept that many others will not accept this.
Probably because you're cherry picking data.
I'm cherry picking data? I chose an arbitrary cut off point after looking into it and excluded no years. My conclusion was clear, and I introduced no caveats. So I fail to see this.
You may want to read what you wrote previously, i.e. your aim and 'which I think I have if I conveniently ignore 2013-2016'.
Ok. My conclusion was much wider than what you have quoted.
Remember, my original hypothesis is not that CS has no advantage, it's that her advantage is not stronger than other elite athletes. 2005-2008 data shows that it's not, where as 2010-2015 suggest that it is.This is IAAF's data of her seasonal progression (blue) at 800m compared to the seasonal best (orange) from 2001. The green line is the median result excluding hers from 2018 and Jelimo's 2008 result. The reason I've done that is to show what other women (let's presume they're natural women) tend to run, even with the benefit of nutrition and scientifically based training, i.e. anything above 1:55
What it shows IMO is Semenya is an obvious outlier, but not quite to the extent of Kratochvílová et al. So we need to determine the reason for this and IMO it's the benefit of testosterone.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel Absolutely. But I can't see how to measure that.
But you've said yourself she has an advantage, so is your argument that it only makes a difference if she's running absolutely ridiculous times?
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Interesting , Semenya wore a boys uniform to school and headmaster didn't know she was a girl till grade 11 [age 15] . Shes on the left of the photo
Also the nasty venomous bullying troon Rachael/Rhys McKinnon is supporting Semenya . McKinnon is an utterly awful person, Semenya would be better off distancing herself from the fat fluffybunny.
Semenya with her pregnant wife.
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@No-Quarter no, but if puberty was such a big thing wouldn’t her times be stronger 2011-2015? As per antip graphs, they aren’t.
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@antipodean thanks - good graph.
You mentioned earlier about 2008 being highly suspect. This where our views differ. You see that as suspect as it backs your thoughts on CS. Whereas I don’t as I think this is prob where natural progression for times should be.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel yes and no.
I think all elite level athletes have an advantage. Whereby it be physical or mental. Kate Moss was never going to win a tennis grand slam, Serena Williams was never going to be a stick thin model.
The question is where is the line drawn.
Or alternatively, when. I haven’t raised this yet but there is massive difference between asking CS to reduce testosterone at 28 years old, vs 18 years old.
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Are you disputing the effects of testosterone, particularly during puberty? Because that's not my opinion, it's a scientific observation and is the biggest factor that differentiates men and women.
Also, I don't dispute that top athletes have biological advantages over the average person. That's self-evident. But we draw a line between men and women for the sake of equal opportunity between the sexes. Otherwise there would be no professional women athletes anywhere. We've made huge progress promoting women's sports recently and we need to protect it to ensure it continues to grow.
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@No-Quarter in general no.
In CS, I am debating it.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@Rancid-Schnitzel yes and no.
I think all elite level athletes have an advantage. Whereby it be physical or mental. Kate Moss was never going to win a tennis grand slam, Serena Williams was never going to be a stick thin model.
The question is where is the line drawn.
Or alternatively, when. I haven’t raised this yet but there is massive difference between asking CS to reduce testosterone at 28 years old, vs 18 years old.
I would definitely agree with that last part that this should have been addressed when she entered major races. It's quite ridiculous to do something now after 3 Olympics and dozens of other races. Why exactly wasn't this addressed back in the day and why is it being made an issue now?
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter in general no.
In CS, I am debating it.
With respect, that doesn't really make sense. There is either an advantage or there isn't. That Semenya can't run as fast as doped up women or the men doesn't mean she doesn't have any biological advantages over women.
But I'm really talking about the wider implications of allowing athletes with XY chromosomes and elevated levels of testosterone to compete in the protected women's category. These rulings go way beyond just Semenya.
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@No-Quarter said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter in general no.
In CS, I am debating it.
With respect, that doesn't really make sense. There is either an advantage or there isn't. That Semenya can't run as fast as doped up women or the men doesn't mean she doesn't have any biological advantages over women.
It doesn't make sense if every single male reacted exactly the same way through puberty due to the testosterone. Do the majority - I'd probably answer yes. But certainly not all - hell in my school alone I could name 20+boys who clearly didn't seem to get the effects you talk about when turning from boys to men. Did CS get these? It's not inconceivble to think that as she's a woman, that she didn't get the full benefit.
But I'm really talking about the wider implications of allowing athletes with XY chromosomes and elevated levels of testosterone to compete in the protected women's category. These rulings go way beyond just Semenya.
Yes, I understand that. On the whole, its an extremely difficult subject to deal with. When do natural advantages cross over into cheating.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter in general no.
In CS, I am debating it.
With respect, that doesn't really make sense. There is either an advantage or there isn't. That Semenya can't run as fast as doped up women or the men doesn't mean she doesn't have any biological advantages over women.
It doesn't make sense if every single male reacted exactly the same way through puberty due to the testosterone. Do the majority - I'd probably answer yes. But certainly not all - hell in my school alone I could name 20+boys who clearly didn't seem to get the effects you talk about when turning from boys to men. Did CS get these? It's not inconceivble to think that as she's a woman, that she didn't get the full benefit.
But I'm really talking about the wider implications of allowing athletes with XY chromosomes and elevated levels of testosterone to compete in the protected women's category. These rulings go way beyond just Semenya.
Yes, I understand that. On the whole, its an extremely difficult subject to deal with. When do natural advantages cross over into cheating.
Males have varying levels of testosterone so you get varying results. But all males have around 10 to 30 times that of women. It's not even close.
The subject only becomes difficult when you make concessions to allow people that are not biological women compete in the women's category. Which is essentially what they are doing with this ruling.
Mens categories are open already, there is nothing stopping the rest of us competing in that. And if we're not good enough to be the best in the open category, tough shit, that's life.
This is a good discussion, but I'm unlikely to soften my stance here. I strongly believe the women's category needs protection or we bring women's sport into disrepute, which would be a great shame given how far it's come.
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@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@antipodean thanks - good graph.
You mentioned earlier about 2008 being highly suspect. This where our views differ. You see that as suspect as it backs your thoughts on CS. Whereas I don’t as I think this is prob where natural progression for times should be.
Not so much CS - Jelimo's 2008 season is completely at odds with the rest of her career. Nothing says drug cheat like that sort of improvement. That's why I rule it out.
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@No-Quarter said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter said in The Semenya Rule:
@MajorRage said in The Semenya Rule:
@No-Quarter in general no.
In CS, I am debating it.
With respect, that doesn't really make sense. There is either an advantage or there isn't. That Semenya can't run as fast as doped up women or the men doesn't mean she doesn't have any biological advantages over women.
It doesn't make sense if every single male reacted exactly the same way through puberty due to the testosterone. Do the majority - I'd probably answer yes. But certainly not all - hell in my school alone I could name 20+boys who clearly didn't seem to get the effects you talk about when turning from boys to men. Did CS get these? It's not inconceivble to think that as she's a woman, that she didn't get the full benefit.
But I'm really talking about the wider implications of allowing athletes with XY chromosomes and elevated levels of testosterone to compete in the protected women's category. These rulings go way beyond just Semenya.
Yes, I understand that. On the whole, its an extremely difficult subject to deal with. When do natural advantages cross over into cheating.
Males have varying levels of testosterone so you get varying results. But all males have around 10 to 30 times that of women. It's not even close.
The subject only becomes difficult when you make concessions to allow people that are not biological women compete in the women's category. Which is essentially what they are doing with this ruling.
Mens categories are open already, there is nothing stopping the rest of us competing in that. And if we're not good enough to be the best in the open category, tough shit, that's life.
Indeed, although every morning when CS gets out of the shower she sees a woman in the mirror. She also knows that despite training just as hard as every other person on the planet, she is not even close to competitive to males, but is dominant in females. What to do? Here dominance is only one event - she's not even close to the likes of Bolt, Phelps, Michael Johnson when it comes to sporting. She's hardly an outlier.
This is a good discussion, but I'm unlikely to soften my stance here. I strongly believe the women's category needs protection or we bring women's sport into disrepute, which would be a great shame given how far it's come.
Softening of stance - thats fine, neither am I. But debate against all others has been respectful, which is all anybody can ever ask.
I do disagree with the woman's sports comment though. Perhaps across some - rugby, football etc, but athletics / tennis are just as strong as they have always been. It has got through far bigger issues than CS (Renee Richards, Eastern Euro / Chinese doping), and it will get through this as well. I don't buy into that argument at all.
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@Frank said in The Semenya Rule:
Art imitating life, a Troon was stripped of four world weightlifting records
https://www.dailywire.com/news/47094/female-trans-powerlifter-stripped-womens-emily-zanotti
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@No-Quarter said in The Semenya Rule:
This essentially means all three medal winners were XY as the new ruling only applies to XY athletes. So no ovaries on the podium. Given how extremely rare this condition is (less than 0.01% of phenotypical women) it far more than sheer coincidence that they are all at the top.
That’s excellent news.
The level of misinformation from virtue signalling commentators about Semenya is disturbing. Even by the lowly standards of stuff and the two authors this was a disgrace . Speaking of which Jeremy Elwood identifies as a comedian, Semenya has more credibility competing as a woman .
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In Samoa fa’afafines compete with the men , there’s actually one in the American Samoa soccer team
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We can file this away under "no shit"
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