Black Caps vs Pakistan Series
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@crucial Not that many in NZ it seems - but, plenty in the subcontinent, Sharjah and some in the Windies.
If there's really no prospect of wickets for the spinner - wouldn't we be better off just playing another seamer - e.g we could play Boult, Southee, Wagner, Ferguson and de Grandhomme who could sustain a pretty large workload.
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@chris-b said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@crucial Not that many in NZ it seems - but, plenty in the subcontinent, Sharjah and some in the Windies.
If there's really no prospect of wickets for the spinner - wouldn't we be better off just playing another seamer - e.g we could play Boult, Southee, Wagner, Ferguson and de Grandhomme who could sustain a pretty large workload.
I think we should be looking at Ferguson. Point of difference to the other seamers and has a very good first class record. I feel we are underplaying him at the moment.
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@crucial said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@chris-b said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@shark said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
You won't away me on Santner though. He's a really, really good ODI player because both his skillsets suit the pace of that format but in T20 his batting is no good and in tests his bowling is almost purely about containment.
In T20, if we're going to win, Santner should never have to do much more than make a small cameo with the bat.
In tests, I heard Jeremy Coney making an interesting assessment of our spinners. He said the guy we should pick should be the guy who is most capable of spinning us to victory on a Day 5 pitch.
His assessment was that that man is Todd Astle!
How many 'day 5 pitches' are there in cricket these days? I think (the usually astute) Coney is thinking of the old days.
Unless you have a player that can bamboozle with spin you are best to select the most accurate guy that is going to hold an end while you rotate through the quicks. If the have the ability to tie a batsman up with perfect line and length then better still.
'Bamboozle with spin....'
We're talking about the Black Caps right?
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@chris-b said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@crucial Not that many in NZ it seems - but, plenty in the subcontinent, Sharjah and some in the Windies.
If there's really no prospect of wickets for the spinner - wouldn't we be better off just playing another seamer - e.g we could play Boult, Southee, Wagner, Ferguson and de Grandhomme who could sustain a pretty large workload.
At the cost of Captain Kane being suspended every second match for slow over rates, ....... like Jason Holder.
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Anyway. Who says Santner isn't, or won't, be effective on a 5th day pitch? I've seen Santner rip it big on pitches that turn.
Anyway. Not a 5th day pitch statistical analysis. But as imperfectly close I can get.
NZ's most effective 4th innings bowlers (of any type) this decade:
The world's most effective 4th innings spinners this decade (with a minimum qualification to make sure Mitch is included ....):
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@rapido yr first query shows Vettori's "span ending in 2012 but he bowled in 2014 against Pakistan in UAE. Is it filtered for home tests only? Query suggests no.
Probably in that game NZ didn't bowl in the 4th innings of the match.
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@dogmeat said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@rapido yup yr right - I had done a lazy check and seen Paki's batted last but overlooked the innings victory. Rookie mistake - given myself a taking to.
if you tweak the query for 3rd and 4th innings, you get this:
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NZ's all time spin bowling record in the 4th innings, shows me two things:
- Santner has been the best.
- You don't pick a spin bowler purely to bowl on the last day (at the expense of the rest of his job), as it likely very rarely happens.
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Santner demonstrating a few of the problems with small samples. His best bowling figures in the 4th innings are 2/13 and that was his most recent match against the Windies where he captured Roach and Cummins. I reckon, in terms of bowling NZ to victory in the 4th innings, Mark Craig has been significantly more successful.
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Coney is an idiot!
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I think Santner's spot in the test team should be under a lot of scrutiny. He's not good enough to bat 6, meaning he has to be one of our four frontline bowlers, but he doesn't take enough wickets for that which is why they want him playing as an allrounder.
Shorter forms he's all class, but in tests we should be playing horses for courses more - if it's a fast pitch Lochie should play ahead of him. If it's a slow turner then Santner gets the nod (of Sodhi if he continues to improve).
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@chris-b said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
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Santner demonstrating a few of the problems with small samples. His best bowling figures in the 4th innings are 2/13 and that was his most recent match against the Windies where he captured Roach and Cummins. I reckon, in terms of bowling NZ to victory in the 4th innings, Mark Craig has been significantly more successful.
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Coney is an idiot!
For sure.
Small sample size to claim him our best 4th innings spinner. But also small sample to dismiss him as not a 5th Day spinner.I agree about Mark Craig. From memory, He genuinely bowled us to 3 victories with his 4 innings bowling. Which is an incredible strike rate.
I hung on to hope for him for a while. Had he just lost form, or was it a bit of an early career fluke? But he was conceding 4.5 to 5rpo often.
Need to be able to work within the overall bowling plan, which Santner does.
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@rapido said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@chris-b said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
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Santner demonstrating a few of the problems with small samples. His best bowling figures in the 4th innings are 2/13 and that was his most recent match against the Windies where he captured Roach and Cummins. I reckon, in terms of bowling NZ to victory in the 4th innings, Mark Craig has been significantly more successful.
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Coney is an idiot!
For sure.
Small sample size to claim him our best 4th innings spinner. But also small sample to dismiss him as not a 5th Day spinner.I agree about Mark Craig. From memory, He genuinely bowled us to 3 victories with his 4 innings bowling. Which is an incredible strike rate.
I hung on to hope for him for a while. Had he just lost form, or was it a bit of an early career fluke? But he was conceding 4.5 to 5rpo often.
Need to be able to work within the overall bowling plan, which Santner does.
Craig got heaps of shit on here, lots of it from yours truly. He did bust out a few genuinely great performances and well and truly overachieved with the bat but by Christ he was also really awful in between all that.
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@no-quarter said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
I think Santner's spot in the test team should be under a lot of scrutiny. He's not good enough to bat 6, meaning he has to be one of our four frontline bowlers, but he doesn't take enough wickets for that which is why they want him playing as an allrounder.
Shorter forms he's all class, but in tests we should be playing horses for courses more - if it's a fast pitch Lochie should play ahead of him. If it's a slow turner then Santner gets the nod (of Sodhi if he continues to improve).
Why would you want 5 seamers?
Why should Santner get dropped because CDG gets hidden at 8, about 3 or 4 places lower down the order than his normal FC batting position?
There's no problem with the team make up, just the batting order.
CDG is scoring the runs and bowling the probing reliable overs the Neesham and Anderson weren't able to consistently do. Although CDG is yet to play an overseas test.
Santner is bowling the tight overs early in the match, and taking wickets late in the match that Craig and Sodhi weren't able to combine.
I'm just non-plussed why a bowler who nails his 2 different varying roles gets so much scrutiny, it's weird.
I can doubt that Hesson and his teammates think this way, thankfully.
I don't think Santner is the messiah, but he's a young player achieving his role.
He don't last at 6 though.
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@mn5 said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@rapido said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@chris-b said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
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Santner demonstrating a few of the problems with small samples. His best bowling figures in the 4th innings are 2/13 and that was his most recent match against the Windies where he captured Roach and Cummins. I reckon, in terms of bowling NZ to victory in the 4th innings, Mark Craig has been significantly more successful.
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Coney is an idiot!
For sure.
Small sample size to claim him our best 4th innings spinner. But also small sample to dismiss him as not a 5th Day spinner.I agree about Mark Craig. From memory, He genuinely bowled us to 3 victories with his 4 innings bowling. Which is an incredible strike rate.
I hung on to hope for him for a while. Had he just lost form, or was it a bit of an early career fluke? But he was conceding 4.5 to 5rpo often.
Need to be able to work within the overall bowling plan, which Santner does.
Craig got heaps of shit on here, lots of it from yours truly. He did bust out a few genuinely great performances and well and truly overachieved with the bat but by Christ he was also really awful in between all that.
Yes, he was. And was eventually deservedly dropped after getting a lot of rope for his early career success.
Still a good prospect imo. If he sticks to his guns at domestics level and stays the course to work his way back in.
He was just a pup by spin bowling levels. Took it up late. Some similarities to Santner in that way (although I think Santner genuinely took both disciplines seriously at youth level).
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@hydro11 said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@nzzp said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
@hydro11 said in Black Caps vs Pakistan Series:
Umpires aren't making a call though - they are just going with whatever the fielder says.
Really? I think they are making calls.
Turning back to the cricket -- do you think it was a clean catch? I do - would have no major issues if a BC batsmen was given.
also, getting hands under the ball apparently seems optional right now. Ish,a nd then CDG dropping them
I can't remember an umpire give a controversial catch not out in the past few years.
I think we're flogging a dead horse, but I would like to say I don't think this fully carried. TMO got it right - and really no objection to the onfield call.
Morgan 'understands' Maxwell's reprieve
The decision by third umpire Chris Brown sparked further debate about the use of TV pictures to judge whether a catch has carried
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