Americas Cup
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Who cares if it's only held once every 4 years and only 3 challengers come? It's a historic cup that we've worked hard to get and keep. It should be held only in NZ, as long as we can retain it-8, 12, 20, 40 years.
And the first order of business should be changing the deed to introduce a nationality clause.If we lose it to INEO for a silly gamble, guaranteed the Royal Yacht Club will find some way to shaft us and hold the next cup in England. We should not be fools.
Instead, I'd like to see exhibitions held by TNZ and others around harbour and around the islands off Auckland.
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@tewaio said in Americas Cup:
I thought the whole point of spending taxpayer money on this was we get to host a massive international event with huge exposure in Auckland. If they take it offshore I'll be pissed.
But if there is a guarantee the next even will be back in auckland but after a bit event that might raise more interest/challengers?
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@snowy said in Americas Cup:
@canefan said in Americas Cup:
Sounds like a no brainer if Ineos is locked into having the AC regatta here in the event that they win
It sounds good in some ways - certainly be a big event.
If we did lose though, they are the defender, and get to set all of the class rules, boat design, competition rules, wind limits (can be contentious to some), time limits (was an issue in SFO - cost us the cup), etc. Those are all a big advantage that we give away, which is why it has been so hard to take it away in the past. We would also have to the challenger of record at home next time to mitigate some of that.
We might well win anyway, but we are gambling quite a bit. Sounds like a chance for the Brits to finally get their hands on it again and get the monkey of their back. Can't blame them for that.
Aren’t the rules and stuff agreed between the defender and CoR? Not just set by the defender?
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@kiwiwomble To an extent yes. That is why I said that we had to be the CoR.
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I should also clarify that the CoR is chosen by the defender (technically RNZYS last time not ETNZ but I'm sure they do it)) - so you see the point. In order to agree to races in the U.K but have the next one here, we need to be sure that we are CoR to get back some of the home advantage.
The defender is always going to be in the stronger negotiating position I would say. It's an "here's the cup, come and take it" stance.
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@snowy said in Americas Cup:
I should also clarify that the CoR is chosen by the defender (technically RNZYS last time not ETNZ but I'm sure they do it)) - so you see the point. In order to agree to races in the U.K but have the next one here, we need to be sure that we are CoR to get back some of the home advantage.
The defender is always going to be in the stronger negotiating position I would say. It's an "here's the cup, come and take it" stance.
Each challenge needs to be backed by a yacht club, which is essentially a rubber stamp exercise. I remember when Chris Dickson had his Tag Heuer challenge, it was the Mercury Bay yacht club
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@canefan said in Americas Cup:
Each challenge needs to be backed by a yacht club, which is essentially a rubber stamp exercise. I remember when Chris Dickson had his Tag Heuer challenge, it was the Mercury Bay yacht club
Yes I know that a yacht club has to be behind a challenge. The comment was about who is actually putting their name to it and who is in reality the challenger.
I think you remember incorrectly. Mercury Bay was the big boat challenge in 1988 with Michael Fay. They weren't involved in any others that I know of, nor was Dickson involved.
The Tag challenge was from Tutukaka yacht club.
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@snowy said in Americas Cup:
@canefan said in Americas Cup:
Each challenge needs to be backed by a yacht club, which is essentially a rubber stamp exercise. I remember when Chris Dickson had his Tag Heuer challenge, it was the Mercury Bay yacht club
Yes I know that a yacht club has to be behind a challenge. The comment was about who is actually putting their name to it and who is in reality the challenger.
I think you remember incorrectly. Mercury Bay was the big boat challenge in 1988 with Michael Fay. They weren't involved in any others that I know of, nor was Dickson involved.
The Tag challenge was from Tutukaka yacht club.
I stand corrected Sir
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@snowy said in Americas Cup:
@kiwiwomble To an extent yes. That is why I said that we had to be the CoR.
so assuming there is a guarantee the next full one is held in Auckland (so we get back the home field advantage) and they do all the usual stuff to make sure ETNZ/RNZYS are the CoR should we lose this, thoughts?
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@kiwiwomble in theory a good idea to make money... But the deed of gift doesn't appear to allow future challenges to be bound. We'd be relying on the British to play fair, and in America's cup that's high risk
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@nzzp does the DoG specifically preclude additional agreements? a separate contract securing the CoR status to the loosing team from the Deed challenge?
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@kiwiwomble said in Americas Cup:
@nzzp does the DoG specifically preclude additional agreements? a separate contract securing the CoR status to the loosing team from the Deed challenge?
Nope, but you'd be left trying to enforce a separate agreement. It wouldn't(and couldn't) bind the holder of the cup as far as I know.
Anyway, have a read. It's not long.
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@nzzp yeah, read that before (as best as i could), didn;t think it it specifically precluded a separate contract
I would have thought a contract if written well enough could and would be binding
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@kiwiwomble I'm not a lawyer, but I think you could sue and win, but you wouldn't get the cup. Just damages. The deed of gift trumps outside contracts I think
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@kiwiwomble said in Americas Cup:
I would have thought a contract if written well enough could and would be binding
It should be, and you would be dealing with modern law and wording, but Ineos have a billionaire backer...
I assume that if they are the holders, and decided to disregard any contracts / agreements that were made, jurisdiction will come into it. A hearing could be held in British courts, even if the laws were drawn up in NZ? Not sure about that. The point is I wouldn't trust it as a binding document. It's the AC.
We would need to get some serious cash (I reckon it would draw that as an event too) to take the risk of losing. I also think that we would be a better than 50/50 chance of winning too.
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@nzzp said in Americas Cup:
@kiwiwomble I'm not a lawyer, but I think you could sue and win, but you wouldn't get the cup. Just damages. The deed of gift trumps outside contracts I think
This. History would suggest that the holder gets to keep it.
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@nzzp you can get court orders to enforce a contract rather than just suing for damages
I never meant to say you could sue for the cup, just where its held, all the actual events will have their own contracts. ETNZ/RNZYS dont own the waterfront in auckland etc so separate agreements would be in place for use of that land etc
@Snowy yeah, you would imagine they would have to make any agreement in the UK to be sure
Its going to be whatever it is, i just hope we dont pass up an opportunity to make some money and then loose it again in the next round because we couldn't keep hold of the best people like last time
add to this to potential to get more people excited about it by an event quickly after the last one and in europe
If there are change to do that and then still have the next "full" one in auckland then thats very tempting
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@kiwiwomble said in Americas Cup:
make some money and then loose it again in the next round because we couldn't keep hold of the best people like last time
Yes.
@kiwiwomble said in Americas Cup:
add to this to potential to get more people excited about it by an event quickly after the last one and in europe
Yes.
@kiwiwomble said in Americas Cup:
If there are change to do that and then still have the next "full" one in auckland then thats very tempting
There is a chance for sure, but it is the usual risk / reward thing. How much do we gain? Does it keep all of our best people, etc, etc.
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*"He claimed a recent chat he had with Team New Zealand boss Grant Dalton indicated there were “a lot of options” but defending the Cup in Britain wasn’t the one Dalton favoured.
“The most likely outcome is a post-Covid America's Cup organised quickly in November 2022, here in Auckland, with the present teams, so that they don't get taken apart,” Trouble, who is still in New Zealand, told Tip & Shaft."*
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From the "AC is more dangerous than it looks" file
