Aaron Cruden
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@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rapido said in Aaron Cruden:
Throughout our history though we have always had a chain of great fullbacks,
Except between Karam and Gallagher.
We couldn't find a decent fullback to save ourselves (Bevan Wilson might have been good but was injured and eventually we came up with Hewson who was a terrible defender, but otherwise serviceable and were almost too scared to dispense with him given the disasters that had preceded him - like Farrell, Fawcett, Currie, Richard Wilson, Duncan Robertson, Codlin...).
During those times , i thought our backs overall were a bit average compared to the decades that were to follow , Bruce robertson the major exception that comes to mind , he was class
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@Catogrande said in Aaron Cruden:
@rotated Just listing those guys and saying if that's the level of good..
Those blokes are certainly not the stand out 10s in the NH during the professional era:
In no particular order, Jonathan Davies, Wilkinson, Townsend, Sexton, Farrell (gonna cause some comment), Andrew (TBH I'd bracket him with O'Gara).
The players I had listed were players that had a reputation in some areas for being "good" but whose selectors were regularly looking around with one eye on someone better or more complete.
Wilkinson obviously is miles ahead of those guys, but for the bulk of his career England were over the moon with him.
Sexton is above all those guys, probably on a level with where Andrew got. Farrell - give it another season and I'll sign off on that, I get the sense that England are very happy with his performance and have no reason to try and pull a rabbit out of a hat as they have in the past.
Townsend probably fits in the same category as guys like Quesada, Rees or Va'a where they were pretty solid over a long period of time and their spot in the side was never seriously questioned, but also from a nation where the expectations weren't as high.
Davies in his prime was before my time largely in terms of NH rugby being televised - did not impress in his comeback.
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@rotated Allowing that you've been spoiled in A) having the best 10 to have played the game so far and
had some very good 10s playing in some bloody good sides, I'll allow that your views on other 10s maybe somewhat meh.IMO there are not many complete 10s. Wilkinson for example was a fine 10 and had many attributes, but compared to some, was not as naturally gifted. Spencer was outrageously gifted but was somewhat flakey. You have good, solid talented players like Sexton, Cruden. You have mercurial players like Barret of Davies - what makes Barrett seem so much better is that Davies was playing in a completely shit team.
And then you have Carter.
Yeah we have gone overboard about St Jonny, but previously we'd not been blessed with arguably the best 10 in the world at some point since the early 60s (have a look at Richard Sharp). We had a good team with a very good 10 - allow us a bit of feel good..
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@Milk said in Aaron Cruden:
@kiwiinmelb said in Aaron Cruden:
Slightly off topic,
For a country who has been so good at rugby , with the exception of carter , I'm not so sure we have produced the quality of 10s that you would expect from us , considering how dominant we have been overall
Well, our best 10s tend to own the position for nearly 10 years at a time, so it makes it tough to generate lots of greats at that rate. Fox, Mehrts, Carter pretty much took care of the 80s, 90s, 00s.
Go back before Fox and we really didn't have long term 10s.
Im trying to find a reference to the book, I think it was by TP McLean, may have been 'NZ Rugby Greats' or 'All Black Legends' or similar from the 70s, but the first 5/8 was Ross Brown. who is hardly a household name in the realms of a Lochore, Clarke, Nepia, Meads, Whineray etc. You could name a player in every position who would be greater name recognition.
Really would struggle to name too many 10s prior to the 80s. Bruce, Duncan Robertson, Dunn, Fred Allen and Ben Couch would be about it. The latter two I know for non playing reasons.
So i tend to agree with KiM that we haven't prodced a great number or great 10s.
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@Nepia said in Aaron Cruden:
@Bones said in Aaron Cruden:
47 doesn't actually seem like a lot in this day and age. Did he debut in 2010?
47 isn't so bad when your career coincides with the greatest 10 to play the game.
@Catogrande What you don't know of Mark Nicholls, Earle Kirton, Nicky Allen and some bloke called Wayne Smith - and you call yourself a rugby fan!
Until Smith came along I think barely a NZ 10 ever made it to 10 tests - Wales had all the good 10s and we had everyone else.
Ahh... forgot Ernie. Nicholls I should have remembered as well.
(Allen was 80s so doesn't get on my list
).But again, none if them had a long career.
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@Catogrande said in Aaron Cruden:
@Nepia Ah now that you mention Nicky Allen, him I do remember. Not bad at all but as a great of the game? That would be why his name keeps cropping up on here all the time...
James Dean effect. Short career (2 Tests) which promised much but passed away before he could deliver.
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@Crucial said in Aaron Cruden:
Mac Herewini would likely have been a star in this day and age.
Part of the reason only 'modern' 10s have carved a high status is that the style of AB play has changed to a far less conservative way.
No mention of Nick Evans in the posts above either. He seemed to be a stand out in the UK if not so much during his AB career.
I think Frano Botica could also be added to the outstanding 10s list.Damn. Mac Herewini. But again only 10 caps.
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@Nepia said in Aaron Cruden:
@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rapido said in Aaron Cruden:
Throughout our history though we have always had a chain of great fullbacks,
Except between Karam and Gallagher.
We couldn't find a decent fullback to save ourselves (Bevan Wilson might have been good but was injured and eventually we came up with Hewson who was a terrible defender, but otherwise serviceable and were almost too scared to dispense with him given the disasters that had preceded him - like Farrell, Fawcett, Currie, Richard Wilson, Duncan Robertson, Codlin...).
Pray, do tell, who he should have been dispensed for? Some bloke called Robbie?
For the last few years of his reign abso-blimen-lutely! Or Crowley.
I still recall that last quarter of the game Eden Park 1981 with horror ...
But ... from hero (Wilson's try) to villain (Ray Mordt, Ray Mordt, Ray Mordt... ) to hero in the blink of a penalty goal ...
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aaron Cruden:
@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rapido said in Aaron Cruden:
Throughout our history though we have always had a chain of great fullbacks,
Except between Karam and Gallagher.
We couldn't find a decent fullback to save ourselves (Bevan Wilson might have been good but was injured and eventually we came up with Hewson who was a terrible defender, but otherwise serviceable and were almost too scared to dispense with him given the disasters that had preceded him - like Farrell, Fawcett, Currie, Richard Wilson, Duncan Robertson, Codlin...).
Crowley wasn't so bad.
Post Hewson
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@Catogrande said in Aaron Cruden:
@rotated Just listing those guys and saying if that's the level of good..
Those blokes are certainly not the stand out 10s in the NH during the professional era:
In no particular order, Jonathan Davies, Wilkinson, Townsend, Sexton, Farrell (gonna cause some comment), Andrew (TBH I'd bracket him with O'Gara).
Barnes was better than Andrew.
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@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aaron Cruden:
@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rapido said in Aaron Cruden:
Throughout our history though we have always had a chain of great fullbacks,
Except between Karam and Gallagher.
We couldn't find a decent fullback to save ourselves (Bevan Wilson might have been good but was injured and eventually we came up with Hewson who was a terrible defender, but otherwise serviceable and were almost too scared to dispense with him given the disasters that had preceded him - like Farrell, Fawcett, Currie, Richard Wilson, Duncan Robertson, Codlin...).
Crowley wasn't so bad.
Post Hewson
But between Karam and Gallagher surely?
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@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Crucial said in Aaron Cruden:
Mac Herewini would likely have been a star in this day and age.
Part of the reason only 'modern' 10s have carved a high status is that the style of AB play has changed to a far less conservative way.
No mention of Nick Evans in the posts above either. He seemed to be a stand out in the UK if not so much during his AB career.
I think Frano Botica could also be added to the outstanding 10s list.Damn. Mac Herewini. But again only 10 caps.
My old man raved over Herewini s talent ,
but he may have been a bit biased , played first 15 with him at Oatahuhu college
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@kiwiinmelb said in Aaron Cruden:
@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Crucial said in Aaron Cruden:
Mac Herewini would likely have been a star in this day and age.
Part of the reason only 'modern' 10s have carved a high status is that the style of AB play has changed to a far less conservative way.
No mention of Nick Evans in the posts above either. He seemed to be a stand out in the UK if not so much during his AB career.
I think Frano Botica could also be added to the outstanding 10s list.Damn. Mac Herewini. But again only 10 caps.
My old man raved over Herewini s talent ,
but he may have been a bit biased , played first 15 with him at Oatahuhu college
I think by many accounts he was the Carlos Spencer of his day but had to play a conservative role in the ABs
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aaron Cruden:
@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Aaron Cruden:
@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
@Rapido said in Aaron Cruden:
Throughout our history though we have always had a chain of great fullbacks,
Except between Karam and Gallagher.
We couldn't find a decent fullback to save ourselves (Bevan Wilson might have been good but was injured and eventually we came up with Hewson who was a terrible defender, but otherwise serviceable and were almost too scared to dispense with him given the disasters that had preceded him - like Farrell, Fawcett, Currie, Richard Wilson, Duncan Robertson, Codlin...).
Crowley wasn't so bad.
Post Hewson
But between Karam and Gallagher surely?
Yeah sorry read that wrong. Started pre Gallagher and ended after.
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@booboo said in Aaron Cruden:
@Catogrande said in Aaron Cruden:
@rotated Just listing those guys and saying if that's the level of good..
Those blokes are certainly not the stand out 10s in the NH during the professional era:
In no particular order, Jonathan Davies, Wilkinson, Townsend, Sexton, Farrell (gonna cause some comment), Andrew (TBH I'd bracket him with O'Gara).
Barnes was better than Andrew.
Subjective. But yes, I'd agree. However he wouldn't do as he was told, which meant he didn't fit what was required. Great shame.
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@Nepia said in Aaron Cruden:
Pray, do tell, who he should have been dispensed for? Some bloke called Robbie?
Unquestionably yes, really.
Robbie was the lynchpin of the best provincial team in the country - he simply didn't make mistakes - in a Ben Smithesque way (though he didn't have the attacking weaponry of Ben Smith). Hewie had obvious defensive weaknesses.
If you were going to characterize it in more modern terms it would be like sticking with Ben Blair for two extra seasons, when you had Mils Muliaina in the wings.
Unfortunately for Robbie, he got a bad knee injury around 84/85 and was never the same player.
So I'd list him and Crowley as being serviceable - David Halligan might have been good as well, but never got the chance.
But, returning to Rapido's original point, post-Karam we didn't really have an outstanding fullback until Gallagher IMO. Even Karam might have been viewed through rose-tinted spectacles a bit, due to some of the horrors of what came after.
Conversely, I reckon you can probably list a pretty much unbroken line of outstanding opensides going right back to at least Waka Nathan.
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@Chris-B. said in Aaron Cruden:
Conversely, I reckon you can probably list a pretty much unbroken line of outstanding opensides going right back to at least Waka Nathan.
That pretty much traces it back to where it became a highly specialised position. Immediatly preceeding Waka Nathan was a young Colin Meads, Stan Meads, Graham and even Kel Tremain at times... so by extending it out you collect even more luminaries.
Between that Nathan-Kirkpatrick-Mourie-Hobbs-Jones-Kronfeld-McCaw-Cane there is perfect overlap.
The only gaps are Sundays during the late eighties, early nineties.
Aside from a Robertson/Cribb/Randell sized gap No 8 has been similarly dominant going back to DJ Graham. Hooker has been sneaky good also going back even further past Tane Norton to Young/McLeod - although you have to be pretty generous in your assessment of Anton.
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Yeah - arguably Kirkpatrick was also more of a 6 than a 7 - though he played a bit in tandem with people like Grizz in his earlier days, so presumably took on a sort of 6.5 role. Later on in the mid-70s people like Ken Stewart and Kevin Eveleigh were also outstanding opensides.
