Coronavirus - New Zealand
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@rapido have there been any official numbers of Nurses/Teachers etc who have lost thier job due to the mandates?
Is it inline with the 5% of everyone else, or are they higher/lower?
I mean the whole point was to get to 90% right, we exceeded this, so you could argue the mandates weren't even necessary.
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@taniwharugby I guess it's the whole protect the vulnerable. If you were a chemo patient you probably wouldn't be overjoyed to think that your immuno compromised body was being cared for by an unvaxxed nurse even if 95% of the rest of the population was triple jabbed.
Preventing unvaxxed from going to a bar or cafe. That I have an issue with.
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@rapido here's a question to mull over though.
Should a person's individual right to choose override another's right of safety eg if my elderly mother was to be in hospital should she be in an environment of less risk of catching Covid than it would be if there were unvaccinated staff? She doesn't get a choice.There are various studies but the consensus is that the risk of unvaccinated people catching and transmitting the virus is much higher than vaccinated.
So yeah, they have a right to choose but what about the patients, children etc that they come into contact with?
The big question is where to draw that line. You may say OK doctors/nurses/teachers need vaxxing but is it then OK for hospo sites?
My solution would be that businesses themselves can choose and display that they are a vaccinated/tested environment and then customers can choose, but services like schools, hospitals etc remain mandated.
Mandates aren't a new thing. NZDF service people are mandated on a number of vaccinations and have been since forever. -
@dogmeat agree to a point, but you could have the unvaxxed Nurses (lets assume it is 10% of the staff?) doing other tasks (esp not with the highly vulnerable) and what is the extra risk to kids from Teachers?
I've just never been comfortable with the mandates, I can understand the reasoning behind them, but still doesnt mean I agree with them.
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How are vaccination mandates any different to other health and safety ones apart from it being a 'medicine'?
You are mandated to pass a driving test before legally driving. There are mandates around PPE equipment in high risk environments.
Mandates therefore aren't really the issue. Vaccination is. Not allowing yourself to be vaccinated (and yes I know there can be valid reasons) is a person's choice but they can't expect the health and safety of others to be compromised because they choose to ignore or disbelieve facts.
You have a freedom of choice, you just need to understand the consequences.
NB: I would expect that those with genuine reason for not vaxxing are managed properly.
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@bovidae said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
It's culled out those doctors and nurses who I would question why they were in the health sector to begin with.
Ha ha, true.
I remember an artricle on stuff last year right at the start of the process about a small rural King Country school "may have to close down" as only a 2 teacher school and both were anti-vax. I was thinking, well, who'd want to send their kids to a school with such dumb teachers.
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby I guess it's the whole protect the vulnerable. If you were a chemo patient you probably wouldn't be overjoyed to think that your immuno compromised body was being cared for by an unvaxxed nurse even if 95% of the rest of the population was triple jabbed.
Preventing unvaxxed from going to a bar or cafe. That I have an issue with.
Yeah. It's unpicking the cancer nurse being mandatory vaxed from the 'can't use your council library'.
And TBH. If you unpicked one now from the other ... it probably wouldn't de-escalate the 'movement' very much.
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12 year Olds cannot play sport right now if they're not vaxxed. That's is huge over reach for something that offers those 12 year Offers little benefit to them, with uncommon but severe risks.
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
How are vaccination mandates any different to other health and safety ones apart from it being a 'medicine'?
You are mandated to pass a driving test before legally driving. There are mandates around PPE equipment in high risk environments.
It's the bill of rights, and the right to refuse medical treatment.
The mandates that impose on that have to be justified. To me, that's a time bound, and effect bound requirement. Early in a pandemic, when vaccination is effective at suppressing spread (noting that ability drops with time), it's arguably a justified imposition.
As time goes on, though, that justification drops. After this Omicron spike (where it doesn't like the presnece of unvaxxed won't change the spread rate much), it gets even harder to justify keeping them in place.
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
How are vaccination mandates any different to other health and safety ones apart from it being a 'medicine'?
You are mandated to pass a driving test before legally driving. There are mandates around PPE equipment in high risk environments.
Mandates therefore aren't really the issue. Vaccination is. Not allowing yourself to be vaccinated (and yes I know there can be valid reasons) is a person's choice but they can't expect the health and safety of others to be compromised because they choose to ignore or disbelieve facts.
You have a freedom of choice, you just need to understand the consequences.
NB: I would expect that those with genuine reason for not vaxxing are managed properly.
We need to stay current with these discussions. There's no evidence that being vaccinated will keep others safe with Omicron, even in countries with extremely high vaccination rates it spreads like wild fire. So what is the rationale for the continued mandates?
There's also a massive difference between having to pass a test or wear extra PPE when doing a specific activity, and not being able to participate in society if you don't allow the government to inject you with a vaccine. They're not even close to the same thing.
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@no-quarter yep, you can choose to not drive a car, therefore not take the test, but I suspect you would only do this if the place you lived had adequate public transport.
So if we followed a similar (silly) analogy, you could therefore choose to be unvaccinated if you felt your health system could support you when you needed it
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
How are vaccination mandates any different to other health and safety ones apart from it being a 'medicine'?
You are mandated to pass a driving test before legally driving. There are mandates around PPE equipment in high risk environments.
Mandates therefore aren't really the issue. Vaccination is. Not allowing yourself to be vaccinated (and yes I know there can be valid reasons) is a person's choice but they can't expect the health and safety of others to be compromised because they choose to ignore or disbelieve facts.
You have a freedom of choice, you just need to understand the consequences.
All of which needs to be reviewed in light of the vaccination myths being dispelled, chiefly that it prevents you from infecting others.
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
How are vaccination mandates any different to other health and safety ones apart from it being a 'medicine'?
You are mandated to pass a driving test before legally driving. There are mandates around PPE equipment in high risk environments.
Mandates therefore aren't really the issue. Vaccination is. Not allowing yourself to be vaccinated (and yes I know there can be valid reasons) is a person's choice but they can't expect the health and safety of others to be compromised because they choose to ignore or disbelieve facts.
You have a freedom of choice, you just need to understand the consequences.
All of which needs to be reviewed in light of the vaccination myths being dispelled, chiefly that it prevents you from infecting others.
I don't think I have ever heard anyone seriously claiming that.
The reasoning (and I agree that it needs rechecking for pertinence under Omicron) is that vaccination reduces greatly the catching and passing. Therefore in risk situations (like health facilities with sick people) risk mitigation is to remove the people with a higher chance of having the virus and passing it on. Commonsense to me.
@no-quarter said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
There's also a massive difference between having to pass a test or wear extra PPE when doing a specific activity, and not being able to participate in society if you don't allow the government to inject you with a vaccine. They're not even close to the same thing.
See this is the bit I don't understand. Why aren't they close to the same thing? They are different occurrences but what is the fear of injection? That must be reasonable as well.
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
How are vaccination mandates any different to other health and safety ones apart from it being a 'medicine'?
You are mandated to pass a driving test before legally driving. There are mandates around PPE equipment in high risk environments.
Mandates therefore aren't really the issue. Vaccination is. Not allowing yourself to be vaccinated (and yes I know there can be valid reasons) is a person's choice but they can't expect the health and safety of others to be compromised because they choose to ignore or disbelieve facts.
You have a freedom of choice, you just need to understand the consequences.
All of which needs to be reviewed in light of the vaccination myths being dispelled, chiefly that it prevents you from infecting others.
I don't think I have ever heard anyone seriously claiming that.
The reasoning (and I agree that it needs rechecking for pertinence under Omicron) is that vaccination reduces greatly the catching and passing. Therefore in risk situations (like health facilities with sick people) risk mitigation is to remove the people with a higher chance of having the virus and passing it on. Commonsense to me.
@no-quarter said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
There's also a massive difference between having to pass a test or wear extra PPE when doing a specific activity, and not being able to participate in society if you don't allow the government to inject you with a vaccine. They're not even close to the same thing.
See this is the bit I don't understand. Why aren't they close to the same thing? They are different occurrences but what is the fear of injection? That must be reasonable as well.
Maybe this will help.
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@gt12 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
How are vaccination mandates any different to other health and safety ones apart from it being a 'medicine'?
You are mandated to pass a driving test before legally driving. There are mandates around PPE equipment in high risk environments.
Mandates therefore aren't really the issue. Vaccination is. Not allowing yourself to be vaccinated (and yes I know there can be valid reasons) is a person's choice but they can't expect the health and safety of others to be compromised because they choose to ignore or disbelieve facts.
You have a freedom of choice, you just need to understand the consequences.
All of which needs to be reviewed in light of the vaccination myths being dispelled, chiefly that it prevents you from infecting others.
I don't think I have ever heard anyone seriously claiming that.
The reasoning (and I agree that it needs rechecking for pertinence under Omicron) is that vaccination reduces greatly the catching and passing. Therefore in risk situations (like health facilities with sick people) risk mitigation is to remove the people with a higher chance of having the virus and passing it on. Commonsense to me.
@no-quarter said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
There's also a massive difference between having to pass a test or wear extra PPE when doing a specific activity, and not being able to participate in society if you don't allow the government to inject you with a vaccine. They're not even close to the same thing.
See this is the bit I don't understand. Why aren't they close to the same thing? They are different occurrences but what is the fear of injection? That must be reasonable as well.
Maybe this will help.
I'm not disputing the BoR, I'm talking about how people personally feel as every time other general mandates in life are brought up someone cries 'but that's not the same'.
I don't see a vax as being 'medical treatment' and don't think it was the reason behind that clause.
Here's a definition (from overseas) in a law dictionary taking from 141 legal documents such as insurance policies
"Medical Treatment means examination and treatment by a Legally Qualified Physician for a condition which first manifested itself, worsened or became acute or had symptoms which would have prompted reasonable person to seek diagnosis, care or treatment"
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
How are vaccination mandates any different to other health and safety ones apart from it being a 'medicine'?
You are mandated to pass a driving test before legally driving. There are mandates around PPE equipment in high risk environments.
Mandates therefore aren't really the issue. Vaccination is. Not allowing yourself to be vaccinated (and yes I know there can be valid reasons) is a person's choice but they can't expect the health and safety of others to be compromised because they choose to ignore or disbelieve facts.
You have a freedom of choice, you just need to understand the consequences.
All of which needs to be reviewed in light of the vaccination myths being dispelled, chiefly that it prevents you from infecting others.
I don't think I have ever heard anyone seriously claiming that.
The reasoning (and I agree that it needs rechecking for pertinence under Omicron) is that vaccination reduces greatly the catching and passing.
A mandate in the face of such evidence is stupid and counterproductive.
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@no-quarter said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
There's also a massive difference between having to pass a test or wear extra PPE when doing a specific activity, and not being able to participate in society if you don't allow the government to inject you with a vaccine. They're not even close to the same thing.
See this is the bit I don't understand. Why aren't they close to the same thing? They are different occurrences but what is the fear of injection? That must be reasonable as well.
Are you being deliberately obtuse here? How can you not understand the difference?
If I choose not to get my drivers license, there is only one thing that it stops me from doing - driving a car.
By contrast, if I choose not to get vaccinated in a world of mandatory jabs, there are potentially a multitude of things I cannot do - dine out, go to the pub, travel, work in many offices, hold certain jobs etc
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@no-quarter said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
There's also a massive difference between having to pass a test or wear extra PPE when doing a specific activity, and not being able to participate in society if you don't allow the government to inject you with a vaccine. They're not even close to the same thing.
See this is the bit I don't understand. Why aren't they close to the same thing? They are different occurrences but what is the fear of injection? That must be reasonable as well.
Are you being deliberately obtuse here? How can you not understand the difference?
If I choose not to get my drivers license, there is only one thing that it stops me from doing - driving a car.
By contrast, if I choose not to get vaccinated in a world of mandatory jabs, there are potentially a multitude of things I cannot do - dine out, go to the pub, travel, work in many offices, hold certain jobs etc
Or one thing, 'mix fully with the majority group'.