Coronavirus - New Zealand
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
I think that is a little pessimistic. It's a generalisation quite obviously but the Maori way is not to rush into things. That doesn't mean that people won't do something just that they will do it when they are ready and sometimes it takes a while to get to that state.
There are processes of consensus thinking in many matters and that is sometimes why 'instructions' are baulked at.
It is definitely a cultural difference that people have been trying to understand how to work within for some time and one of the reasons why the initial vax programme didn't work so well and Maori leaders called for the process to be handed to them.
Many more will 'get there'.Dude Corona has been around for how long?
People have been dying for how long?
Quit being an apologist,
These lockdowns are fucking over the country. -
@frank said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
I think that is a little pessimistic. It's a generalisation quite obviously but the Maori way is not to rush into things. That doesn't mean that people won't do something just that they will do it when they are ready and sometimes it takes a while to get to that state.
There are processes of consensus thinking in many matters and that is sometimes why 'instructions' are baulked at.
It is definitely a cultural difference that people have been trying to understand how to work within for some time and one of the reasons why the initial vax programme didn't work so well and Maori leaders called for the process to be handed to them.
Many more will 'get there'.Dude Corona has been around for how long?
People have been dying for how long?
Quit being an apologist,
These lockdowns are fucking over the country.Yep it's all my fault.
@taniwharugby 's opinion was that he thought rates had stalled, I'm just saying that maybe they will slowly keep going up. Not quite sure how that is being a govt apologist but feel free to take out your frustrations on me.
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@frank said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
I think that is a little pessimistic. It's a generalisation quite obviously but the Maori way is not to rush into things. That doesn't mean that people won't do something just that they will do it when they are ready and sometimes it takes a while to get to that state.
There are processes of consensus thinking in many matters and that is sometimes why 'instructions' are baulked at.
It is definitely a cultural difference that people have been trying to understand how to work within for some time and one of the reasons why the initial vax programme didn't work so well and Maori leaders called for the process to be handed to them.
Many more will 'get there'.Dude Corona has been around for how long?
People have been dying for how long?
Quit being an apologist,
These lockdowns are fucking over the country.Yep it's all my fault.
@taniwharugby 's opinion was that he thought rates had stalled, I'm just saying that maybe they will slowly keep going up. Not quite sure how that is being a govt apologist but feel free to take out your frustrations on me.
Huh? Never said it was your fault.
Stop trying to make excuses for not enough Maori being vaccinated.
You're a cultural apologist.
As I said, we are long past excuse time. -
@crucial didnt say they were stalled, just said they arent gonna get upto the numbers needed.
Numbers are still ticking up, but not enough, might capture a few more with another vaccine option, but again, wont be enough to drive the numbers up here and I expect further north is where the real problem lies.
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan tbf Hone is/has been pushing for vaccinations, problem is I think they are as far down the path as they will get given how long.the Vax push has been going, with the focus on Maori rates too.
They need to realise no amount of pressure and door knocking will get the numbers up significantly, all they are doing is holding on to a false hope that they can get the required numbers.
Let's not forget, some of those unvaxxed won't play by the traffic light restrictions where they can get away with it too.
I think that is a little pessimistic. It's a generalisation quite obviously but the Maori way is not to rush into things. That doesn't mean that people won't do something just that they will do it when they are ready and sometimes it takes a while to get to that state.
There are processes of consensus thinking in many matters and that is sometimes why 'instructions' are baulked at.
It is definitely a cultural difference that people have been trying to understand how to work within for some time and one of the reasons why the initial vax programme didn't work so well and Maori leaders called for the process to be handed to them.Many more will 'get there'.
Tiny sample size I know, but my bro in laws family live in the sticks 40 minutes from Paihia. The whole whanau have no intention of getting vaxxed. And my bro in law is a doctor and he can't convince them! Not an isolated situation I suspect
No, not at all and I can see why if they can't see a direct impact.
There have been studies and trials of using a system of 'consensus cards' to help with group thinking (without being leading). It kind of words by getting people to put down thoughts both positive and negative as individuals then shuffling and redistributing those thoughts and doing the process again. If people see that maybe they share a similar concern or see a similar solution then you work from that point. It's quite interesting.
Using your group as an example they may mostly share a concern that a visitor brings Covid to them or question the effectiveness of masks when they go to town. Their reasons for not vaccinating could also be shared (or be different) and they can be addressed singly without the cycles of "but what about".They have a deep mistrust of the medical system, and don't see any good from it. Bloody tough to fight that
It can be really baffling when you hear things like that. I hope that if they are in an accident they convey that deep distrust to the paramedics.
"oh, I'm sorry shall I leave you in the wreckage then? Shall I call someone to collect your body?"I'm being facetious I know but everything has a limit or a tipping point. The key is aligning it.
People exercise considerable mental gymnastics to accept the white man's health care they want and to refuse the stuff they don't
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@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@canefan tbf Hone is/has been pushing for vaccinations, problem is I think they are as far down the path as they will get given how long.the Vax push has been going, with the focus on Maori rates too.
They need to realise no amount of pressure and door knocking will get the numbers up significantly, all they are doing is holding on to a false hope that they can get the required numbers.
Let's not forget, some of those unvaxxed won't play by the traffic light restrictions where they can get away with it too.
I think that is a little pessimistic. It's a generalisation quite obviously but the Maori way is not to rush into things. That doesn't mean that people won't do something just that they will do it when they are ready and sometimes it takes a while to get to that state.
There are processes of consensus thinking in many matters and that is sometimes why 'instructions' are baulked at.
It is definitely a cultural difference that people have been trying to understand how to work within for some time and one of the reasons why the initial vax programme didn't work so well and Maori leaders called for the process to be handed to them.Many more will 'get there'.
Tiny sample size I know, but my bro in laws family live in the sticks 40 minutes from Paihia. The whole whanau have no intention of getting vaxxed. And my bro in law is a doctor and he can't convince them! Not an isolated situation I suspect
No, not at all and I can see why if they can't see a direct impact.
There have been studies and trials of using a system of 'consensus cards' to help with group thinking (without being leading). It kind of words by getting people to put down thoughts both positive and negative as individuals then shuffling and redistributing those thoughts and doing the process again. If people see that maybe they share a similar concern or see a similar solution then you work from that point. It's quite interesting.
Using your group as an example they may mostly share a concern that a visitor brings Covid to them or question the effectiveness of masks when they go to town. Their reasons for not vaccinating could also be shared (or be different) and they can be addressed singly without the cycles of "but what about".They have a deep mistrust of the medical system, and don't see any good from it. Bloody tough to fight that
It can be really baffling when you hear things like that. I hope that if they are in an accident they convey that deep distrust to the paramedics.
"oh, I'm sorry shall I leave you in the wreckage then? Shall I call someone to collect your body?"I'm being facetious I know but everything has a limit or a tipping point. The key is aligning it.
People exercise considerable mental gymnastics to accept the white man's health care they want and to refuse the stuff they don't
It never ceases to amaze me that this would still be a sticking point after European colonisation wiped out millions of indigenous people via disease, and we even had something of a more recent example with the 1918 flu pandemic killing Maori at a much higher rate than Pakeha (obviously not colonisation specifically, but as far as we can tell, it appears to have originated either in Europe or the USA). Like, we know we have caused problems with disease, so here we are with some really good vaccines, and just shot down.
Meanwhile, all the Covid orders have appeared at http://www.pco.govt.nz/covid-19-legislation/ for people who like to read the actual orders in addition to relying on the advice from government agencies.
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@muddyriver I'm interested in why it's a definite no? I have no skin in the game and understand why a parent might be reluctant given that age group is at negligible risk from Covid.
But the counterargument is that kids are great at passing bugs on and they remain a potential virus reservoir.
We vaccinate young kids for other illnesses although admittedly this is to protect them rather than the wider population.
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@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@muddyriver I'm interested in why it's a definite no? I have no skin in the game and understand why a parent might be reluctant given that age group is at negligible risk from Covid.
But the counterargument is that kids are great at passing bugs on and they remain a potential virus reservoir.
We vaccinate young kids for other illnesses although admittedly this is to protect them rather than the wider population.
I think you just made his argument.
I’m not saying I agree, but you’ve summed it up with your last sentence.
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I have friends with a child with cystic fibrosis. So, I am very keenly awaiting the vaccine to become available for 5 to 12 year olds.
But, as for vaccinating the healthy children in that age bracket (of which mine would be in that bracket) . I'd have to look at the maths. My first instinct at this stage is that it should be a voluntary option for the vulnerable, so probably a no if the benefits don't out-weigh the risks.
As a nation we are probably as well well vaccinated against hospitalisations etc as we are likely to get, and don't see much value trying to push this much broader now. There is no herd immunity to target.
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@dogmeat I reluctantly vaxxed my 12yr old lad recently. I won't be vaxxing the 11yr old girl for as long as possible. Sure it appears a small chance of issue, but my wife got an out of cycle period immediately after hers, and I don't like the idea of messing with my little girls body.
I also DO like the idea of them building up natural immunity to something that isn't that actually dangerous to them.
I won't be vaxxing my 8yr old son either
As for the societal argument, I'm a bit over people telling us what we need to do for everyone else (not aimed at you personally). If you're afraid of the virus, stay home, get vaxxed, whatever. It is not the responsibility of everyone else to take your margin of risk down yet another notch. We have locked down society repeatedly over the past 2yrs, to largely protect the vulnerable, at significant cost.
Time to move on.
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We've run with every other advised and available vaccination so far in the kids lives, and I've seen no valid reason from reputable sources* to change that approach now.
(* And to be blunt, I've reached the stage I'm only interested in weblinks or "look at this research" if it is from the GP, or from the youngest's Paediatrician...)
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@donsteppa said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
We've run with every other advised and available vaccination so far in the kids lives, and I've seen no valid reason from reputable sources* to change that approach now.
(* And to be blunt, I've reached the stage I'm only interested in weblinks or "look at this research" if it is from the GP, or from the youngest's Paediatrician...)
I'd say the 3 major differences are:
- this vaccine was developed in record time - we truly do not know what the medium term effects in kids might be
- the vaccine protects against a disease that really isn't that dangerous to kids - we have a lot of evidence for this
- we are already seeing mutations that may be resistant to current vaccines - so why bother taking the risk?
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@dogmeat I reluctantly vaxxed my 12yr old lad recently. I won't be vaxxing the 11yr old girl for as long as possible. Sure it appears a small chance of issue, but my wife got an out of cycle period immediately after hers, and I don't like the idea of messing with my little girls body.
I also DO like the idea of them building up natural immunity to something that isn't that actually dangerous to them.
Out of interest (I'm not trying to trap you) are you allowing your daughter to get the HPV vax?
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@gt12 said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@dogmeat said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@muddyriver I'm interested in why it's a definite no? I have no skin in the game and understand why a parent might be reluctant given that age group is at negligible risk from Covid.
But the counterargument is that kids are great at passing bugs on and they remain a potential virus reservoir.
We vaccinate young kids for other illnesses although admittedly this is to protect them rather than the wider population.
I think you just made his argument.
I’m not saying I agree, but you’ve summed it up with your last sentence.
I have a friend who lives in the UK (real guy, not a friend of a friend 😉) and his boys got very sick for a week or two. Loss of taste, swelling of the face and around the neck, and welts on extremities that looked like something out of the 1600s. The CF Jr's will have the jab to spare them that type of experience if they are unlucky enough to get it bad
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@crucial said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - New Zealand:
@dogmeat I reluctantly vaxxed my 12yr old lad recently. I won't be vaxxing the 11yr old girl for as long as possible. Sure it appears a small chance of issue, but my wife got an out of cycle period immediately after hers, and I don't like the idea of messing with my little girls body.
I also DO like the idea of them building up natural immunity to something that isn't that actually dangerous to them.
Out of interest (I'm not trying to trap you) are you allowing your daughter to get the HPV vax?
haven't had that discussion yet, and I'm sure the wife will drive that decision - but using my framework above, it doesn't fall foul of any of my concerns (severity of the disease its protecting against, been around for 15yrs, not rendered useless by mutations)