Coronavirus - Australia
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@nostrildamus said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Which begs the question, how is covid19 going in Afghanistan?
I don't know but adulterers are stoned and alcohol is banned so maybe still a teensy-weeny bit stricter, still, than Australia
So more like a NZ stage 4 then?
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@nostrildamus said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@canefan said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@voodoo said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Which begs the question, how is covid19 going in Afghanistan?
I don't know but adulterers are stoned and alcohol is banned so maybe still a teensy-weeny bit stricter, still, than Australia
So more like a NZ stage 4 then?
Hey!! We have alcohol!!!
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - Australia:
2nd consecutive day of falling cases in NSW, we have this fucker beat!
Leave Gladys alone! Oh, I see what you mean..
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@taniwharugby said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@voodoo the UK mentioned they wanted to do this a few weeks back, but they still reporting case numbers and deaths...which today was 32,253 new cases and 49 deaths (wonder how many of these were unvaccinated)
and how many deathes were FROM Covid as opposed to WITH Covid
Feels like we are missing a massive opportunity here to highlight the benefits of a healthy lifestyle on the general public
As have every other country
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Once again, the bungled vaccine roll-out is in no small measure to blame for this. AZ is a good vaccine, it's allowed the UK to get to where it is. With proper procurement and marketing these hesitancy issues would have been greatly reduced.
How much of that is the fault of the Government, and how much is at the feet of ATAGI?
Now the Feds have bungled the rollout, but it's not quite as bad as many make out. I can at least understand why they did what they did.
In the uncertainty of early vaccine trials, they decided to put most of their eggs in one basket - AZ. The reason being it was the one we could manufacture locally. I think that made a lot of sense at the time.
So all was good with that plan until ATAGI came out and really rogered the whole thing by limiting the use of AZ to over 60s. Did Morrison and co have any idea that would happen? No. So their plan was pretty much rooted by the overly cautious medicos.
Now they look foolish because they put too many eggs in the AZ basket and not enough eggs in the Pfizer/Moderna basket. Which was clearly an error but only one that is visible in hindsight.
Clearly other mistakes have been made and I'm not claiming Morrison has covered himself in glory here. But I also think it's not quite as bad as some make out.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
So all was good with that plan until ATAGI came out and really rogered the whole thing by limiting the use of AZ to over 60s. Did Morrison and co have any idea that would happen? No.
I'm still uncertain it wasn't due to Morrison and co'. That info came out at the exact time he was copying crap in the press for the slow vaccine rollout. The tinfoil is sitting firmly on top of my head still.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
Once again, the bungled vaccine roll-out is in no small measure to blame for this. AZ is a good vaccine, it's allowed the UK to get to where it is. With proper procurement and marketing these hesitancy issues would have been greatly reduced.
How much of that is the fault of the Government, and how much is at the feet of ATAGI?
A bit of both.
Now the Feds have bungled the rollout, but it's not quite as bad as many make out. I can at least understand why they did what they did.
I can't for the life of me.
In the uncertainty of early vaccine trials, they decided to put most of their eggs in one basket - AZ. The reason being it was the one we could manufacture locally. I think that made a lot of sense at the time.
Totally disagree. If you had to pick only one, that was a good one to pick. But they didn't, they could pick as many as they wanted to pay for. The risk of just picking one (or two if you count the aborted UQ vax) is massive, what it fails or has bad side effects or the regulator doesn't like it. A modest investment up front in a wider spread would have gone a very long way to reducing the big economic hit that we're going to have for the next few months while we work towards 80%.
So all was good with that plan until ATAGI came out and really rogered the whole thing by limiting the use of AZ to over 60s. Did Morrison and co have any idea that would happen? No. So their plan was pretty much rooted by the overly cautious medicos.
All was not well with that plan. That's like saying all was well with my plan to invest my entire life savings in a single stock, until someone did something to make the stock crash.
Of course Morrison didn't know that would happen, the whole thing was unpredictable. It's risk management 101. Nobody could foresee this particular issue happening, but the risk of something happening to a particular vaccine - side effects, bad press, regulators don't like it, supply problems, etc etc - is very real and very foreseeable. Were Atagi too cautious? Probably. But the bigger issue is that Morrison seemed to rely on having a plan that would work great if nothing went wrong. That's a crap plan.
Now they look foolish because they put too many eggs in the AZ basket and not enough eggs in the Pfizer/Moderna basket. Which was clearly an error but only one that is visible in hindsight.
Nonsense. It was clear with a modicum of foresight. If it was only visible in hindsight then why didn't other countries make the same mistake?
Clearly other mistakes have been made and I'm not claiming Morrison has covered himself in glory here. But I also think it's not quite as bad as some make out.
Agree, but we all know that's not how it works here. We each pick our favourite target, and then pile on relentlessly.
Aside from the procurement, the other big blunder has been the messaging. Considering that marketing is the one thing that Scotty is supposed to be good at, what the hell went wrong there? He's getting stick now for spending money on a celebrity advertising campaign. I think that's actually unfair, but he should have done it months ago. Instead there was nothing, so the vacuum was filled with noisy debate and disagreement from various pollies, CHOs, Atagi, doctors and worst of all the misinformation spreaders. The public was unsurprisingly confused, and became more hesitant. I think most of the discussion, disagreement and conflicting information was fine, a normal process of different groups working through a novel problem. But the noise became front and centre, when we needed a clear confident message over the top saying this is the process, here are the risks, now let's get vaxxed.
Why did the messaging go wrong? Don't know, but my guess is that after they realised they'd stuffed up the procurement then the messaging was not a priority any more. A successful campaign could actually have made things worse for Scomo by highlighting the lack of availability. Veering into wild speculation territory, perhaps he figured we'd spend a few more with with the occasional Vic lockdown that Andrews would take the heat for, and he could look like the hero by delivering the vaccines with less than a year until the election.
Scomo's not totally to blame for the stroll out mess, but the lack of leadership and lack of critical decision making is a very strong, consistent theme.
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
All was not well with that plan. That's like saying all was well with my plan to invest my entire life savings in a single stock, until someone did something to make the stock crash.
I don't disagree with much of your post, but I have an issue with this. It's too simple.
They didn't put all their eggs in the AZ basket. We ordered Pfizer and Moderna as well. The issue with those was the delivery time, the proverbial queue and our place in it. That's part of the reason it's been bungled (and I do think it's more complex than 'he should have picked up the phone to the Pfizer CEO').
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
All was not well with that plan. That's like saying all was well with my plan to invest my entire life savings in a single stock, until someone did something to make the stock crash.
I don't disagree with much of your post, but I have an issue with this. It's too simple.
They didn't put all their eggs in the AZ basket. We ordered Pfizer and Moderna as well. The issue with those was the delivery time, the proverbial queue and our place in it. That's part of the reason it's been bungled (and I do think it's more complex than 'he should have picked up the phone to the Pfizer CEO').
Yeah, agree. The simplification is partly useful, because it can capture the essence of what happened even if it's not literally true. But it can also be misleading.
I think they went for 4 different ones (Pfizer, AZ, Moderna, UQ). Which would probably have been ok if "went for" meant bought enough, to be delivered early enough. That's where the biggest failure was. So I dislike the fact that they got it so badly wrong, I dislike the fact that we've been consistently lied to (we were told that we were "at the front of the queue" in January), and I dislike the fact that so many Aussies are so inattentive that scomo will probably get away with it and win the next election.
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I'm not blaming ScoMo because people are so fucking dumb they are refusing to get the readily available AZ (by all accounts there is shitloads of it), or even worse
Cancelling already made appointments to get AZ because they heard more Pfizer was coming.
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@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I'm not blaming ScoMo because people are so fucking dumb they are refusing to get the readily available AZ (by all accounts there is shitloads of it), or even worse
Cancelling already made appointments to get AZ because they heard more Pfizer was coming.
Fuck those people.
I see nothing wrong with the Federal Government's acquisition of vaccines.
They invested in Australian developed (UQ). Not the government's fault it failed. Imagine the uproar if they didn't invest in its development.
They invested in Australian produced. Low cost and effective.
They ordered quantities of two others.
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@mariner4life The media is also culpable, blowing up the few AZ-related deaths without any context at all. I understand how you'd be reticent if you believed you had a chance of dropping dead after getting the shot.
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@mariner4life The media is also culpable, blowing up the few AZ-related deaths without any context at all. I understand how you'd be reticent if you believed you had a chance of dropping dead after getting the shot.
I've given them more than a few whacks over all of this
Shameless, two-faced fluffybunnies
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@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@mariner4life The media is also culpable, blowing up the few AZ-related deaths without any context at all. I understand how you'd be reticent if you believed you had a chance of dropping dead after getting the shot.
The media is fucked. But so are health officials.
A 30yr old woman died of Covid today apparently. Clearly that's shit. But where are the details? She died at home, no ambulance called, was it Sudden Covid Syndrome?
What are we doing here??!!
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@voodoo said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@barbarian said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@mariner4life The media is also culpable, blowing up the few AZ-related deaths without any context at all. I understand how you'd be reticent if you believed you had a chance of dropping dead after getting the shot.
The media is fucked. But so are health officials.
A 30yr old woman died of Covid today apparently. Clearly that's shit. But where are the details? She died at home, no ambulance called, was it Sudden Covid Syndrome?
What are we doing here??!!
I notice they pay special attention to the kind of story where the person who died was young or seemingly in "perfect health". Getting the clicks and perhaps using a bit of fear to get everyone vaccinated???
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@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I'm not blaming ScoMo because people are so fucking dumb they are refusing to get the readily available AZ (by all accounts there is shitloads of it), or even worse
Cancelling already made appointments to get AZ because they heard more Pfizer was coming.
Fuck those people.
I'm not blaming him because people are dumb. But the fact that people are dumb is not a surprise. A roll out plan that relies on people not being dumb is a bad plan. It's the government's job to manage the dumb people and trick them into doing the smart thing.
I mean yeah at this point they might be beyond managing. But it should never have got to this point where there's such confusion and crisis of confidence in AZ
I see nothing wrong with the Federal Government's acquisition of vaccines.
Dear God, really? What would it take?
They invested in Australian developed (UQ). Not the government's fault it failed. Imagine the uproar if they didn't invest in its development.
You know it's not either / or? They could (and should) have invested in the UQ one, and also enough others.
It's not the government's fault that it failed, but it is 100% the government's fault that they didn't adequately plan for the reasonable likelihood that it would fail.
They invested in Australian produced. Low cost and effective.
Great. Maybe they can put the hundreds of millions of dollars saved in not ordering more expensive vaccines towards the tens of billions of dollars that the unnecessarily extended lockdowns will cost.
They ordered quantities of two others.
Yes. Specifically, they ordered insufficient quantities, far too late.
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@gibbonrib said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@antipodean said in Coronavirus - Australia:
@mariner4life said in Coronavirus - Australia:
I'm not blaming ScoMo because people are so fucking dumb they are refusing to get the readily available AZ (by all accounts there is shitloads of it), or even worse
Cancelling already made appointments to get AZ because they heard more Pfizer was coming.
Fuck those people.
I'm not blaming him because people are dumb. But the fact that people are dumb is not a surprise. A roll out plan that relies on people not being dumb is a bad plan. It's the government's job to manage the dumb people and trick them into doing the smart thing.
I don't see what that has to do with my point, except very tangentially.
I mean yeah at this point they might be beyond managing. But it should never have got to this point where there's such confusion and crisis of confidence in AZ
He's not the Lone Ranger on this. There's ATAGI, Qld's CHO ffs and the media.
I see nothing wrong with the Federal Government's acquisition of vaccines.
Dear God, really? What would it take?
They invested in Australian developed (UQ). Not the government's fault it failed. Imagine the uproar if they didn't invest in its development.
You know it's not either / or? They could (and should) have invested in the UQ one, and also enough others.
I didn't present it as "either/ or". I simply pointed out they invested in the development of an Australian researched vaccine. The clue is the following paragraphs.
It's not the government's fault that it failed, but it is 100% the government's fault that they didn't adequately plan for the reasonable likelihood that it would fail.
But they clearly did by ordering another three vaccines.
They invested in Australian produced. Low cost and effective.
Great. Maybe they can put the hundreds of millions of dollars saved in not ordering more expensive vaccines towards the tens of billions of dollars that the unnecessarily extended lockdowns will cost.
The Federal Government doesn't control lockdowns. The very lockdowns and associated pursuit of "covid zero" State premiers are locked into and apparently rewarded by the electorate.
They ordered quantities of two others.
Yes. Specifically, they ordered insufficient quantities, far too late.
Says Captain Hindsight. We aren't short of vaccines, just short of the ones people want.