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@aucklandwarlord said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
@victor-meldrew said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
That said, you need a carrot as well as a stick and society needs to accept ex-cons need to be helped back into normal life and given a bit of leeway to do that. Brand someone a criminal and they'll act like one
Agreed. Dr Paul Wood is a great example of how prisoners can use their time productively to make a brighter future. From memory, he's the first murderer in New Zealand to have his lifetime parole removed. Everyone convicted of murder in New Zealand is subject to lifetime parole, where in theory they can be recalled for any breach of the law or parole conditions, but the parole board decided his turnaround was so marked that he was no longer a risk to society and therefore didn't need to be on parole anymore.
Obviously he's incredibly atypical, but I think a greater focus on vocational training for medium to long term inmates would be a good start. Things like teaching them trade skills and start churning out prefabricated houses from within the prison or similar schemes should be a no-brainer. Reward them with reductions in sentences etc for getting a vocation or educating themselves. It won't reach every prisoner, but it might win back some of the middle ground where a borderline prisoner might fall into a gang instead.
A guy I went to school with ran a young child over while speeding and ended up in prison aged 18. Not a bad guy, just a young guy who made dumb choices behind the wheel. He managed to get school C and bursary, lost a heap of weight, and as far as I know now lives a far more productive life than he otherwise might have if he carried on down the path he was going.
I brought up Paul Wood in another thread, he was a year behind me at college so I vaguely remember him and reading about everything he got up to as a young fella resonated as he was talking about areas I knew well ( Karori was a great spot for teenage parties ).
He points out that while Prison has some irredeemably bad people that shouldn’t ever mix with society again the vast majority are people who made one or more really bad decisions, I suspect that’s pretty accurate.
His turnaround is nothing short of remarkable, how he did it in prison ( again, his book describes the awful conditions in vivid detail ) is beyond me. What an amazing story of redemption, but yeah, how many people a) want to achieve that b) have the ability to achieve that and c) have the opportunity to achieve that ? Sadly, fuck all.
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@victor-meldrew said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
@victor-meldrew said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
@aucklandwarlord said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
Yeah it's gotta be remembered that for the most part, these sorts of offenders aren't created in isolation. Fetal alcohol and drug syndromes, poverty, violence in the home, intergenerational welfare dependency etc are very common features in many young criminals' lives. Obviously much bigger and more structural issues which are significantly harder to address, but all of which play a part in shaping the young criminal.
Yeah, upbringing has a huge impact. Mate of mine was a community copper in Hertfordshire - they ran a scheme with the local council where young offenders could spend a week on a council project (clearing derelict land etc) rather than go thru the justice system. When the project was completed, there was a little award ceremony where the Mayor or Snr Policeman gave them all a little certificate and thanked them for all their hard work on behalf of the town.
Many of these kids would start crying when they received their awards. For the first time in their lives, someone had treated them with respect and taken the time to thank them for their efforts. Working with real adults, being treated as adults and engaged in something useful and having a stake in society was something new for a lot of them
He reckoned the scheme made a substantial reduction in low-level crime in the town and probably stopped quite a few from becoming habitual villains.
That's a scheme that sounds worthwhile. And probably no longer exists because the civil libertarians deemed it an infringement of the kids' human rights.
I honestly don't know if schemes like this are still running - I hope they are.
If they aren't, it's probably less about human rights and more about unions protecting council jobs and complaints from right-wing media about young criminals being given an easy life.
In my dealings with the system, every agency, department, body etc, whether it be Child Safety, the Police, hospitals or schools all blamed the politicians and civil libertarians. The media (whether right, left or nonbinary) generally don't give a flying f unless there's a tragedy. When a couple were tragically killed by a teenage feral in a stolen car some months back, we heard about how there would be a clamp down, stricter penalties etc. But as night follows day the civil libertarians were out there whining about human rights. And for whatever reason our "representative" politicians seem to care more about what these people have to say than those whose lives have been destroyed.
Just a small example with my son. He went missing so I filed a missing persons report. I was worried sick. He had a history of overdosing, mental illness, drug use, petty theft, vandalism, you name it. Much to my eternal shame he was well-known to the police and security staff. He was 14 at the time. When the police found him they were not allowed by law to tell me where he was. His human rights you see. This seems to be a problem across the board. There are a variety of areas where it can be legitimately argued that the system was too harsh or abusive. Yet instead of looking to find a sensible middle way or compromise, it goes to the opposite extreme which is equally if not more harmful.
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The influence of peers is another real big issue in youth crime. While knowing nothing about that Kefu offenders, I'd almost bet that the breakdown of the three offenders is one hardcore criminal who was always destined to be in jail, one moderate who could have gone either way, and one who was probably just along for the ride but came from a family with decent morals, so to speak. Not arguing that they have less culpability by any means, but it was so common to see kids from decent working class families falling in with the wrong crowd in their neighbourhood or school.
I did a lot of my frontline Policing during the well-documented rise of the three-letter youth gangs (normally named a three letter acronym such as "HFK" for "hu fucken cares" ). The level of random violence meted out by some of these gangs was phenomenal. In one of the rapidly gentrifying areas I worked, you'd have young professionals buying their first houses and being repeatedly targeted by the local street gangs. One instance, a street gang turned up at a housewarming party for a young couple who had just bought their house and beat the shit out of some of the partygoers out the front. You're talking a mob of twenty versus three or four people unlucky enough to be out there, beating them up for no real reason at all.
The hardcore of any of those gangs were kids from broken families of gang members, career criminals etc, but a good chunk of them were just kids hanging out with the wrong crowd who came from two-parent backgrounds where both parents had jobs and were just trying for a better life.
I fondly recall dropping a 15 year old 6 foot 5 youth home for some sort of disorder offending where him and his youth gang mates were harassing a sole female working at the community centre. He was pretty big, and was trying to be all staunch with us in front of his mates and in the car. We took him to the doorstep of his house, and Dad who was about 5 foot 8 and had just finished a 12 hour shift at work answered the door. Slowly the tears came from the kid when he realised what was about to happen when that front door closed. His Dad was embarrassed and super apologetic, offered to apologise in person to the victim. We could hear him screaming as we walked back to the car, and I imagine some pretty swift and severe punishment got dished out. I never saw that kid in trouble again, funnily enough.
It's such a complex process trying to keep kids on the right track, especially in lower socio-economic areas where there seems to be push and pull factors for crime and delinquency on every corner.
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As much as early intervention and a focus on rehabilitation is commendable and pays dividends in reducing recidivism, there's clearly an unacceptable gap when juveniles are conducting violent home invasions. London to a brick the record of these little fluffybunnies wasn't littering prior to this incident.
Letting them out of remand is a gross violation of the compact with the electorate.
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@aucklandwarlord said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
It's such a complex process trying to keep kids on the right track, especially in lower socio-economic areas where there seems to be push and pull factors for crime and delinquency on every corner.
realist shit
I'm a sheltered white boy and even i can see that
Youth crime is quite the issue up here. Vast majority young indigenous. Shit home life, no parental guidance. I have been told there are a few hardcore kids that ringlead, and a bunch who just follow. But what can the authorities do when there is no one at home who gives a shit?
And they don't appear to give a fuck either. They had facebook groups taking photos so they could compete with their little rival shitstains in Townsville. Home break-ins followed by car theft predominantly.
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@mariner4life and kids as young as 11 and 12 committing car theft, house break-ins, assaults. Central and Nth Qld have some of the highest juvenile crime rates in the country. Despite the significant amount of time and resources that has and continues to go into support, programs, mentoring, education, community outreach, native title claims, etc etc.
My own view is that it’s the most complex area of public policy and that’s not for lack of trying and working with local community to design and implement, but because at the heart of it is family breakdown and lack of guidance. That hasn’t got anything to do with “the system” which is what often gets pointed out, it comes down to individual responsibility and from my experience, that is a very hard truth when working with these communities.
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@act-crusader said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
@mariner4life and kids as young as 11 and 12 committing car theft, house break-ins, assaults. Central and Nth Qld have some of the highest juvenile crime rates in the country. Despite the significant amount of time and resources that has and continues to go into support, programs, mentoring, education, community outreach, native title claims, etc etc.
My own view is that it’s the most complex area of public policy and that’s not for lack of trying and working with local community to design and implement, but because at the heart of it is family breakdown and lack of guidance. That hasn’t got anything to do with “the system” which is what often gets pointed out, it comes down to individual responsibility and from my experience, that is a very hard truth when working with these communities.
The catch 22 there is that the system actually limits your right to exercise individual responsibility. So you're told what you can't do and are then offered sweet fa when asking for help. I was literally told by the director of Child Safety in Qld to buy a caravan so my son could come and go as he pleased because there was nothing they could do without his consent.
Again it was all about his human rights. The human rights of others? Nobody gives a shit. -
@aucklandwarlord said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
I think a greater focus on vocational training for medium to long term inmates would be a good start. Things like teaching them trade skills and start churning out prefabricated houses from within the prison or similar schemes should be a no-brainer. Reward them with reductions in sentences etc for getting a vocation or educating themselves. It won't reach every prisoner, but it might win back some of the middle ground where a borderline prisoner might fall into a gang instead.
There's a big, family-owned, chain of shoe repair & key-cutting stores in the UK called Timpsons which has a policy of employing ex-offenders as 10% of their staff. They turn out to be some of their best employees and many are recruited and trained while still in prison The CEO thinks it's simply dumb not to tap into this talent pool. Very high retention rate.
Second, I studied Restorative Justice in NZ a few years back. IIRC, it was far more effective at preventing re-offending than traditional justice approach. Is that still the current thinking?
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@victor-meldrew said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
Second, I studied Restorative Justice in NZ a few years back. IIRC, it was far more effective at preventing re-offending than traditional justice approach. Is that still the current thinking?
Offenders often receive a discounted sentence for participating in restorative justice, or at the very least being willing to participate in it. To that end, I think offenders are motivated to do it, whether they believe in it or not. My parents had a vehicle stolen and the juvie scrote said he'd participate in a Family Group Conference (similar to restorative justice but their family and the victim come along and they talk through it all). My Dad turned up and the kid and most of his family didn't even bother showing.
My issue with the restorative justice thing is the almost guaranteed sentence reduction being a big sweetener for the offender to attend. If that offender is heartless/psychopathic or otherwise indifferent to the impact of their actions, they will literally sit through it, cry crocodile tears, and walk out the other side unfazed and then their lawyer will argue for a 20% discount. I think it has merit for first time offenders, and in specific situations such as stranger violence, where the offender has to sit and hear all about how much of an impact their drunken punch has had on the victim's life.
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Big fellas doing just fine. Great to see.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
Big fellas doing just fine. Great to see.
Glorious picture - KFC and all.
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@rancid-schnitzel said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
Just a small example with my son. He went missing so I filed a missing persons report. I was worried sick. He had a history of overdosing, mental illness, drug use, petty theft, vandalism, you name it. Much to my eternal shame he was well-known to the police and security staff. He was 14 at the time. When the police found him they were not allowed by law to tell me where he was. His human rights you see. This seems to be a problem across the board. .
Sounds awful and the sort of thing no parent should go thru. That sort of thing turns parents like yourselves into victims as well.
There are a variety of areas where it can be legitimately argued that the system was too harsh or abusive. Yet instead of looking to find a sensible middle way or compromise, it goes to the opposite extreme which is equally if not more harmful
If we want to prevent crime we should prevent re-offending. And surely the best way to do that is to keep society on-board so they can see the benefits overall in giving offenders a second chance and supporting them.
The sort of stuff you describe seems to be designed to do the exact opposite.
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A 13-year-old boy has been charged over the violent burglary that left former Wallaby Toutai Kefu and his wife and children in hospital. The teenager was allegedly with two other youths, both 15, who broke into Kefu’s home in the early hours of Monday morning armed with a knife, axe and machete.
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Jesus. 13?
I only hope they got the proper shits when they saw who they were up against.
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@gt12 said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
Jesus. 13?
I only hope they got the proper shits when they saw who they were up against.
Yeah reckon they were re-evaluating their choice of weapons when Kef turned on the lights.
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A 15-year-old has been charged with four counts of attempted murder, three counts of grievous bodily harm and one count each of unlawful use of a motor vehicle, break and enter, burglary and deprivation of liberty.
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@antipodean said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
A 15-year-old has been charged with four counts of attempted murder, three counts of grievous bodily harm and one count each of unlawful use of a motor vehicle, break and enter, burglary and deprivation of liberty.
What happens to a 15yr old if found guilty of those offences?
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@victor-meldrew said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
@rancid-schnitzel said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
Big fellas doing just fine. Great to see.
Glorious picture - KFC and all.
KFC
Kefu Foils Criminals -
@voodoo said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
@antipodean said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
A 15-year-old has been charged with four counts of attempted murder, three counts of grievous bodily harm and one count each of unlawful use of a motor vehicle, break and enter, burglary and deprivation of liberty.
What happens to a 15yr old if found guilty of those offences?
Given the number and nature of those charges, the first thing for the prosecutor is to get the matter heard by a higher court than the Children’s Court. Then that court is at liberty to if there is a finding of guilt of attempted murder then the court can impose a life sentence. In sentencing a juvenile, there a factors, but a life sentence is a possibility.
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@voodoo said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
@antipodean said in Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital:
A 15-year-old has been charged with four counts of attempted murder, three counts of grievous bodily harm and one count each of unlawful use of a motor vehicle, break and enter, burglary and deprivation of liberty.
What happens to a 15yr old if found guilty of those offences?
No idea. Children's criminal justice isn't something I have any expertise in.
Toutai Kefu attacked, in hospital