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I did hear from admittedly probably left leaning presenter on a reasonably central podcast that one of the counter arguments to observers not being allowed in were that they may have been “extra” or un vetted, more than the agreed upon number or just republicans rocking up saying they wanted to observe
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@Kirwan said in US Politics:
@dogmeat said in US Politics:
I desewrve a medal. I have just waded through all the posts in this thread since I last visited Friday afternoon.
To save anyone else having to do so - here's a quick precis
Joe Biden has been declared the winner of the 2020 US Presidential election by almost everyone except President Trump and diehard supporters.
Most of the pro Trump posters on this forum seem to have deserted the topic
@Winger hasn't .....
Consensus seems to be there has undoubtedly been small scale voter fraud as there is in every election everywhere but insignificant in the overall picture and not going to impact the election result.
Logic attests to the above
(ex) President Trump and Winger disagree.
Not that I'm pro-Trump, more pro-Republican, but I've been avoiding this topic pretty much as there isn't much to say.
If there is evidence of fraud, it'll be presented through the courts. That evidence will be worth discussing. I ignore pretty much anything Trump has to say as he's a blow hard, and isn't doing the process any favours with his statements.
Until we see the evidence, neither side of this argument can say whether there has been widespread fraud or not. It certainly won't be presented in the media (not appropriate, and even Fox News despise Trump so unlikely to be enthusiatically reported)
To answer one question above about why the Senate/Congressional seats haven been effected, there have been reports of Presidential only ballots being found. Will it stand up in court? We will have to wait and see.
Also reports of dumped ballots in the rubbish, pre-selected ballots, all sorts of rumours. That's why haveing overseers is so important, to squash these sorts of things.
Likely result is Biden has won, IMO. But it's premature to say exactly what has happned until the election process is complete. And that includes the courts proceedings in what has been a very close election).
Gore was annouced the winner prematurely in the press in 2000, for example.
Very well put Kirwan, nails exactly where I am as well.
What I find unbelievably distasteful, is the media reporting of this election. I get sick of banging on about how bad MSM is, but the simple fact is, that they are a core part of the overarching problem.
The narrative is that "the whole world is rejoicing" - Tim's post above being typical. I have real fears of what this does to Trump's fan base. When everybody hates you, are you more likely to reconsider your position, or are you more likely to become further entrenched?
Trump's fan base is not a bunch of sister fucking rednecks. It's full of business leaders, huge wealth, and a significant bunch of people who felt left behind with Obama & his almost blinkered focus on foreign relations. Trump literally stood up in front of these guys and said I'm working for you. And he did. He did a lot of things that average American's wanted.
How do you think these guys are going to feeling right now, watching "the world rejoice". And to be fair to Biden I think he gets that, and his opening speech certainly suggested it. So perhaps I may be worrying unnecessarily. Time will tell.
An old friend of mine who, in my view, should know better as he's a CEO of a decent sized Asia employer, wrote a Facebook comment on the weekend about the mail fraud - this is it word for word, "Hard core Trumpers don't have access to literacy let alone stamps".
People need to really think as to why 70 million people voted for Trump.
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@MajorRage As you suggest, it is incorrect to profile all Trump voters the same way. They will worry but from what I have read about Biden, he is a longtime politician who is more incrementalist than firebrand. I expect he will lean on relationships with people on both sides when managing his presidency, which will hopefully settle their fears
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@MajorRage well not the whole world is rejoicing, I'm sure China would have loved him to stay on, and the Russians were clearly in favour too.
But the traditional US allies, yep, they'll all be pretty happy I would think. Having the US in world organisations is far better than outside, and having a leader who is at least somewhat reasonable and not a spoilt brat has to be easier to deal with. -
@reprobate said in US Politics:
@MajorRage well not the whole world is rejoicing, I'm sure China would have loved him to stay on, and the Russians were clearly in favour too.
But the traditional US allies, yep, they'll all be pretty happy I would think. Having the US in world organisations is far better than outside, and having a leader who is at least somewhat reasonable and not a spoilt brat has to be easier to deal with.Was Trump hard to deal with? Better the devil you know, in my view.
The US may be allies, but it's been a long time since the US President was really the defacto " leader of the free world"
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@canefan said in US Politics:
@MajorRage As you suggest, it is incorrect to profile all Trump voters the same way. They will worry but from what I have read about Biden, he is a longtime politician who is more incrementalist than firebrand. I expect he will lean on relationships with people on both sides when managing his presidency, which will hopefully settle their fears
In my view, that's Biden's second biggest failing (after being too old). Being a career politician.
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@MajorRage said in US Politics:
"the world rejoice
I think Trump supporters have already written off the mainstream media
Of more concern is that cheating has occurred. And it wont be properly investigated
Old articles like this won't help
Obama gave SCYTL company his blessing to provide their ‘secure’ voting services to the US Electoral process. It isn’t bad enough that a foreign company will count the votes, but that company was just bought by one of Obama’s puppet masters George Soros. -
@Kiwiwomble said in US Politics:
I did hear from admittedly probably left leaning presenter on a reasonably central podcast that one of the counter arguments to observers not being allowed in were that they may have been “extra” or un vetted, more than the agreed upon number or just republicans rocking up saying they wanted to observe
One of the observer who spoke at a Rudy event said they was properly vetted. and had all the required paperwork with them
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@Kirwan said in US Politics:
Likely result is Biden has won, IMO. But it's premature to say exactly what has happned until the election process is complete. And that includes the courts proceedings in what has been a very close election).
Gore was annouced the winner prematurely in the press in 2000, for example.
Should this now be the norm for all elections going forward or is there something specific about this one? I guess a concession from the losing candidate makes it a moot point - but how somehow doubt the same patience would have been given to Clinton if she tied the four narrowest states up in litigation.
It was the total opposite in 2000, Bush was prematurely declared the winner which elicited Gore's concession which was then retracted.
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2016 was arguably the most anomalous presidential election in terms of popular vote compared to electors since USA politics became a contest between the Democratic and Republican Parties. Trump in 2016 didn't just lose the popular vote by a small margin and eke out a tight win like George W Bush in 2000, he was well behind in the popular vote, and yet actually won pretty big in the electoral college - when George W Bush was re-elected in 2004, he got a smaller electoral college victory while receiving a majority of 2.46% of the popular vote.
Trump flipped five states from Obama's win in 2012 by narrow margins in a result which could easily be interpreted as all kinds of fraudulent (complete with the late come-from-behind surges in key states like FL and PA), and yet the reaction here was simply that the polls must have been wrong (I scrolled back and checked). Absolutely nothing to suggest anything untoward at all.
Compare that to this election, when it looks like Biden has won by quite a margin when all is said and done, with an electoral college margin historically in line with his popular vote win, with a lead in the polls all the way through, and suddenly it's fraud city and conspiracy theories galore?
2020 vs 2016 election map charts courtesy of CNN. I'm sure more of these types of analyses will roll out over the coming months, but it's hard to see much in the way of patterns of fraud when Biden did so much better than Hillary vs Trump just about everywhere.
Here's a conspiracy for everyone - the winner was a centrist Democrat with well over 40 years political experience of working with very disparate groups in the coalition that is the Democratic Party, who was once the youngest Senator in history (minimum age is 30 and he was elected at 29, turning 30 before the official start date of his term), who drew together the Democratic Party using his vast experience and popularity, who was VP to a very popular president in Obama so plenty of experience in the White House to draw from, and Obama was campaigning for Joe much more strongly than for HIllary (she didn't really want either him or Bill to so they largely didn't).
Maybe instead of going down all the conspiracy rabbit holes that we didn't bother with in 2016 when the results were much more of an anomaly, we could just accept that Biden has probably won like the polls said he would, and if not or if there was fraud, it will all come out in the wash when the counts are rechecked in line with state laws.
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@Winger said in US Politics:
@Kiwiwomble said in US Politics:
I did hear from admittedly probably left leaning presenter on a reasonably central podcast that one of the counter arguments to observers not being allowed in were that they may have been “extra” or un vetted, more than the agreed upon number or just republicans rocking up saying they wanted to observe
One of the observer who spoke at a Rudy event said they was properly vetted. and had all the required paperwork with them
Is this the one outside the landscaping company between the crematorium and adult toy store?
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The only successful riggin in D.C.
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@canefan It was rigged. Rigged I tells ya!
We might find out soon enough. I assume a recount if done wouldn't use this overseas based Dominion software
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@Winger said in US Politics:
@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@canefan It was rigged. Rigged I tells ya!
We might find out soon enough. I assume a recount if done wouldn't use this overseas based Dominion software
Is it the software you don’t like or the fact that it is overseas? Either way you must have a rationale?
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@Winger said in US Politics:
@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@canefan It was rigged. Rigged I tells ya!
We might find out soon enough. I assume a recount if done wouldn't use this overseas based Dominion software
And the flaw was found and fixed under the post count analysis. That points to quite solid post-testing and does mean that one error means lots of errors
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@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@Winger said in US Politics:
@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@canefan It was rigged. Rigged I tells ya!
We might find out soon enough. I assume a recount if done wouldn't use this overseas based Dominion software
Is it the software you don’t like or the fact that it is overseas? Either way you must have a rationale?
The Dominion software doesn't seem to be that great. But based in Spain or Germany and run by an overseas company. What about all this drama about overseas (Russian) interference.
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@Crucial said in US Politics:
@Winger said in US Politics:
@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@canefan It was rigged. Rigged I tells ya!
We might find out soon enough. I assume a recount if done wouldn't use this overseas based Dominion software
And the flaw was found and fixed under the post count analysis. That points to quite solid post-testing and does mean that one error means lots of errors
or it could mean the software is crap and its only one (of many) adjustment that was detected. A recount not using Dominion may be needed
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@Winger said in US Politics:
@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@Winger said in US Politics:
@Catogrande said in US Politics:
@canefan It was rigged. Rigged I tells ya!
We might find out soon enough. I assume a recount if done wouldn't use this overseas based Dominion software
Is it the software you don’t like or the fact that it is overseas? Either way you must have a rationale?
The Dominion software doesn't seem to be that great. But based in Spain or Germany and run by an overseas company. What about all this drama about overseas (Russian) interference.
I can’t see how you can conflate the two other than having the word “overseas” in common. One is an open and above board commercial transaction and the other is interference in the processes of a democratic election.
US Politics