Russia nerve agent poisoning
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@nta said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@kirwan you'd have to ask: if its all bullshit, why are several EU governments going with the "Russia Did It" version of events.
If the agent was analysed and known to only be synthesised in certain areas of the world, you're still taking a large bet on your intelligence services not missing anything at all.
Same reason all those countries thought Iraq had WMDs, faulty or biased intelligence. We’ve seen those agencies have their own agendas, probably always have had.
I was hoping for something a bit more specific, like Russia is the only ones with the nerve agent. Or the motive was clear, something like that.
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@kirwan said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
I was hoping for something a bit more specific, like Russia is the only ones with the nerve agent. Or the motive was clear, something like that.
From what I have heard and read Novichok is a nerve agent developed by Russia. The UK is saying either this was a state-sponsored assassination or Russia has allowed their own nerve agent to fall into other parties hands. There was also a former Russian scientist (living in the US, in exile I assume) who said he was involved in its development. Russia is denying they ever had such a nerve agent.
The truth will lie somewhere in the middle.
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@bovidae said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@kirwan said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
I was hoping for something a bit more specific, like Russia is the only ones with the nerve agent. Or the motive was clear, something like that.
From what I have heard and read Novichok is a nerve agent developed by Russia. The UK is saying either this was a state-sponsored assassination or Russia has allowed their own nerve agent to fall into other parties hands. There was also a former Russian scientist (living in the US, in exile I assume) who said he was involved in its development. Russia is denying they ever had such a nerve agent.
The truth will lie somewhere in the middle.
That’s more like it. So we have circumstantial evidence, that leans towards Russia. And we have them publicly lying about the nerve agent.
With all the sabre rattling going on, I hope they have more than that behind the scenes.
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@kirwan said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
I’ve not been following this closely, what is the evidence Russia did this?
Seems pretty reckless, isn’t this close to an act of war considering the cop was poisoned as well?
If the Russian State did it, then it seems about on par with the Rainbow Warrior to me.
But, so far, I've seen no solid evidence other than that the Russians are probably the only people who manufactured that nerve agent. But then who knows who might have got hold of it. Could be some Russian guy who Skripal slept with his wife?
If the Russians wanted him dead they could have executed him ten years ago.
Basically if Putin did it, it seems like he'd have to be making a major "fuck you" statement (since he could have just put a bullet in Skripal's head).
I fail to see the motive and I can't see that the Brits are presenting any substantive evidence. Unless they know more than they're saying, the response doesn't seem particularly rational, Captain!
These guys seem to be making a reasonable summation.
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@chris-b said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@kirwan said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
I’ve not been following this closely, what is the evidence Russia did this?
Seems pretty reckless, isn’t this close to an act of war considering the cop was poisoned as well?
If the Russian State did it, then it seems about on par with the Rainbow Warrior to me.
But, so far, I've seen no solid evidence other than that the Russians are probably the only people who manufactured that nerve agent. But then who knows who might have got hold of it. Could be some Russian guy who Skripal slept with his wife?
If the Russians wanted him dead they could have executed him ten years ago.
Basically if Putin did it, it seems like he'd have to be making a major "fuck you" statement (since he could have just put a bullet in Skripal's head).
I fail to see the motive and I can't see that the Brits are presenting any substantive evidence. Unless they know more than they're saying, the response doesn't seem particularly rational, Captain!
These guys seem to be making a reasonable summation.
Interesting read. He makes some good points. Thanks.
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@catogrande said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@chris-b said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@kirwan said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
I’ve not been following this closely, what is the evidence Russia did this?
Seems pretty reckless, isn’t this close to an act of war considering the cop was poisoned as well?
If the Russian State did it, then it seems about on par with the Rainbow Warrior to me.
But, so far, I've seen no solid evidence other than that the Russians are probably the only people who manufactured that nerve agent. But then who knows who might have got hold of it. Could be some Russian guy who Skripal slept with his wife?
If the Russians wanted him dead they could have executed him ten years ago.
Basically if Putin did it, it seems like he'd have to be making a major "fuck you" statement (since he could have just put a bullet in Skripal's head).
I fail to see the motive and I can't see that the Brits are presenting any substantive evidence. Unless they know more than they're saying, the response doesn't seem particularly rational, Captain!
These guys seem to be making a reasonable summation.
Interesting read. He makes some good points. Thanks.
I understand the call for a higher level of public evidence, but that shouldn't also mean an assumption of deliberate misinterpretation (like WMDs) or an assumption that the evidence is weak.
I would also hope that a more detailed explanation comes out once the evidence gathering has completed and the full story is carefully put together.
However, the point these articles tend to skip is that those parties that have had the base evidence shared with them have all reached the same conclusion after decent consideration. There was no knee jerk turfing out of Russian diplomats by the US or Australia, they assessed and ratified the evidence the U.K. provided before also deciding a high level of likelihood and acting.
As we also know in the internet age, releasing an incomplete story to the public is asking for massive questioning from uninformed but influential angles and opens opportunities for all sorts of mischievous takes to get clicks, sales and viewers.
I may yet change my mind should a full verifiable story not emerge, but at this stage am happy to wait and watch.As for 'why would Putin do this?'. Simplest explanation is that he didn't do so directly. Next best is that in foreign policy he is a disrupter.
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@crucial I'm still in the pretty sure Russia did it camp for two reasons really. 1. It fits their MO. 2. As you say, the number of other parties that have come out in full support, which tends to lend credence.
The article I feel made some good points in that the WMD stuff has eroded trust in our Governments and quite possibly security services and now we find ourselves more questioning than perhaps we were.
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Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.
Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy
[...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]
Just Imagine, redux.
(There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)
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@salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.
Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy
[...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]
Just Imagine, redux.
(There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)
That report says it was very likely the work of a state actor because of the sophistication. Who do you think did it?
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@salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.
Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy
[...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]
Just Imagine, redux.
(There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)
No
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@salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.
Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy
[...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]
Just Imagine, redux.
(There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)
Virtual media blackout? And you then quote Sky News? Oh, it's been on the BBC as well.
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@catogrande said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.
Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy
[...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]
Just Imagine, redux.
(There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)
Virtual media blackout? And you then quote Sky News? Oh, it's been on the BBC as well.
Same report in the morning Metro for all the London commuters as well. That blackout really isn't working well is it?
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@crucial said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@catogrande said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.
Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy
[...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]
Just Imagine, redux.
(There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)
Virtual media blackout? And you then quote Sky News? Oh, it's been on the BBC as well.
Same report in the morning Metro for all the London commuters as well. That blackout really isn't working well is it?
Perhaps we should ask the Russians. Now they know how to do a media blackout.
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@catogrande said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@crucial said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@catogrande said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
@salacious-crumb said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
Yeah, well, whatevs, let’s be the Grown-Ups In The Room and blame the Rooskies anyway.
Porton Down experts unable to identify ‘precise source’ of novichok that poisoned spy
[...] “The Foreign Office responded that they still believed Russia was behind the attack because of the wider "intelligence picture".” [...]
Just Imagine, redux.
(There’s been a virtual media blackout on this report. Surprised?)
Virtual media blackout? And you then quote Sky News? Oh, it's been on the BBC as well.
Same report in the morning Metro for all the London commuters as well. That blackout really isn't working well is it?
Perhaps we should ask the Russians. Now they know how to do a media blackout.
Are they the same as those 'Rooskies'?
Dastardly bunch. -
@jegga said in Russia nerve agent poisoning:
That report says it was very likely the work of a state actor because of the sophistication. Who do you think did it?
I don’t have to think. Neither do you. All ya gotta do is “Just Imagine,” like in the Willy Wonka movie. Tell yourself whatever comforts you, especially if it’s authoritative, something like, “My colleagues, every statement I make today is backed up by sources, solid sources. These are not assertions. What we're giving you are facts and conclusions based on solid intelligence.””
Mmmmmm, tartar-sauce.
Look, if governments and intel experts and mass media are forever stamping the ground insisting on “real news” and “truth,” mightn’t it follow that they get their shit together before finger-pointing and provoking hostilities with a nuclear adversary? No, I guess it doesn’t. Thank God for Our Grown-Ups. And amnesia.
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Actually getting reported in American media, I think I might faint.
CNN: UK Government deletes tweet about Russian spy’s poisoning
And amazingly — just like Lazarus!! — the spy is resurrected and walking under own strength! That’s some deadly nerve agent alright, thank God for His divine intervention. Or, maybe, y’know, if it really was a “sophisticated state actor,” maybe a gun would have been a fuck of a lot easier, but then, maybe I watched too many James Bond movies, and don’t realize the KGB is trying to show-up the CIA and MI6 with their own exotic spy-craft, look, our exploding cigars actually work, see!!