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@No-Quarter said in Wallabies v Springboks:
Sorry for the thread diversion, I did start it afterall. I know the likes of Stargazer will not be impressed. @akan004 if you want to continue the debate we can always start a thread in Off Topic
I'll solve that for you by making just one comment on this matter of my own:
I don't understand the need of atheists to make negative comments about a group of players, who just - as an expression of their religious beliefs - say thanks after a game. It's not like anyone is forced to participate. I don't share the religious views of these players, but I can fully respect that they have those views and express them this way.
Just like praying before or after a game is an expression of one's religion, the haka before the game is an expression of one's culture. Both are perfectly fine, although I don't easily see an All Black or other NZ rep being able to back out of doing the haka (so less freedom there).
I can't stand people who try to force their (religious) views on me, but that applies both to people with a religious view and atheists. I also can't stand people who don't respect the freedom of (other) people to have religious or atheist views and to express/practice these views.
But indeed, to remain OCD slash nerdy about posting in the right thread, express those views in a thread in "off-topic".
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If a religious person wants to try and push their views on me then I'm more then happy to have a debate with them about why I would never believe something that has absolutely no evidence supporting it. Freedom of speech is hugely important to me, I don't want to stop religious people expressing what they believe in - quite the opposite - I want them to have that debate instead of shutting down any conversation with "I'm allowed to believe what I want so go away".
If someone wants to believe they have leprechauns living at the bottom of their garden they are free to do so. But they shouldn't be surprised when people say "That sounds like nonsense, have you got any evidence to support that claim?". That's not someone "forcing their views" on another person, that's someone logically questioning whether what someone believes has any basis in truth.
Shutting downs people's right to question ideas is a massive step backwards, and contradicts everything modern Science is based on.
I like to ask questions. If that makes me one of those people you "can't stand", then so be it.
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I did try to leave the discussion but Stargazer left a nice piece of bait...
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@nostrildamus said in Religious type discussion:
@jegga yes Mayans in Central America have traditionally prayed for chocolate:
Ixcanil, Goddess of Seed, hear me.
Ixtoq, Goddess of Rain, help me.
Ixcacao, Goddess of Chocolate, see my tears and come to my aid.Sweet, is there a prayer to summon Nigella* and a pile of Whittaker's?
*in the original ad , she looked way milfier in those ones and a bit scary in the recent one.
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Ok, it's gone off topic and I'm bored at work, so I'm going to expand on why I disagreed with your view that Kirwan was being arrogant or whatever.
In my opinion, there it little more things arrogant than religion itself. The fact that you can't wear what you want in certain countries, but then when people from these countries think they are entitled to wear their full coverings for everyday life in other parts of the world. Including local governments, court systems, schools etc. If that's not arrogance, then what is?
And to address the point of Saturdays prayer. Well, hang on a second, those players decided to get together in the middle of the field and show the world their religion. They know they are role models, they know that kids mimic them, they know that when they get down and do that, plenty of children will be going - "why are they doing that", "can we do that", "if I do that will I be a sports star", which is effectively shoving it down their throat. That's rather arrogant isn't it?
Athiests, on the whole, are certainly in no way more arrogant than religious types with their views. In fact, the tolerance they must have, as religion is everywhere in society, is higher than most.
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I love the fact that one of the mods (not me) decided to start this new thread from the "you can pray for chocolate" post by @jegga
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TBH I was short on time, so hadnt trawled back further to see if anymore should be moved, but I thought the point was made
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@MajorRage said in Religious type discussion:
Ok, it's gone off topic and I'm bored at work, so I'm going to expand on why I disagreed with your view that Kirwan was being arrogant or whatever.
In my opinion, there it little more things arrogant than religion itself. The fact that you can't wear what you want in certain countries, but then when people from these countries think they are entitled to wear their full coverings for everyday life in other parts of the world. Including local governments, court systems, schools etc. If that's not arrogance, then what is?
And to address the point of Saturdays prayer. Well, hang on a second, those players decided to get together in the middle of the field and show the world their religion. They know they are role models, they know that kids mimic them, they know that when they get down and do that, plenty of children will be going - "why are they doing that", "can we do that", "if I do that will I be a sports star", which is effectively shoving it down their throat. That's rather arrogant isn't it?
No.
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Ultimately the world is a pretty evil, fucked up place full of evil, fucked up people. If believing in some god-like entity gives people hope and happiness then good on them. So long as that faith does not affect anyone else who really cares. If the prayer session on Saturday was in fact for Leilefano then I see no problem. I believe he's religious himself and as someone literally fighting for his life he probably greatly appreciated it. No harm done.
That stuff is benign, but when religion basically becomes law and has an affect (even deadly)on people who want no part of it, then that is a big big problem.
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@Rancid-Schnitzel said in Religious type discussion:
> > That stuff is benign, but when religion basically becomes law and has an affect (even deadly)on people who want no part of it, then that is a big big problem.``` I agree, that prayer is about as meaningful as someone looking up at the sky afer scoring a try etc. If it means a lot to them, then that's cool and it certianly doesn't hurt anyone by them doing so
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@Hooroo said in Religious type discussion:
Why doesn't the ''' ''' quote thingy work for me?
don't thnk you use those??
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This post is deleted!
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@Rancid-Schnitzel Yep, totally agree.
I don't have a problem with what happened at all. I just have a problem with the hypocrisy of the arrogant comment.
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@akan004 said in Religious type discussion:
@No-Quarter said in Wallabies v Springboks:
Ohhhh one of those fence sitters aye. Comon @akan004 make up your mind... is the Easter Bunny real or not??
I haven't met one atheist who can categorically say that there's no God- ultimately we cannot know for sure. Even Dawkins agrees with this. But the level of arrogance among most atheists is undeniable..
LOL... one of the single most stupid things I have ever had the displeasure of reading on the Fern.
I honestly doubt you are anything close to agnostic because no one who is truly agnostic would say such a thing about Atheists!
You do understand it is near on impossible to prove a negative and that to take it further, the onus and burden of proof lies with those making the claims. And quite frankly, thus far there is not a single substantiated piece of proof or evidence for the existence of any god or gods claimed to exist by their followers.
Further, Atheism is simply the lack of a belief in any god or gods....
Of the thousands of gods created and worhsiped by mankind over the many millennia, the Atheist simply does not hold a belief or faith in the existence of any of those gods.
And really, the only difference between an Atheist and any one of the say monotheistic religions is that the Atheist lacks in a belief in one more god than the montheist.
It is only the ignorant theist who tries to shift the burden of proof on to those who do not hold the same belief.
My honest opions about religion go like this... An individual's private faith in the existence of a god or gods is their own business. However organised religions are a scourge and have been throughout history. They way they always attempt to dictate how everyone should think and act regardless if they are of another faith or without faith.
The one thing that I absolutely cannot stand in the typical theist is the absolute abhorrent and gross arrogance, egotistical way where they thank "god" for all the wonderful things in their life or some sporting achievement thinking that some "god" has bestowed upon them this special honour or special talent yet has allowed how many millions of innocent children to die and how many millions of people who have suffered in every way possible.
That attitude makes me sick to my stomach.
It is not the Atheist who is arrogant, but the theist who thinks that their own personal beliefs and those of whatever religion they follow dictates have more value than the person and persons beside them or on the other side of this planet.
The thing that every theist fails to consider is that why is their belief and faith any more important, why is their god or gods any more important and real than those other religions which they discount and abhor! The Christian belief is not any less or any more real than that of the hindu, buddhist, etc.
The Marriage Equality debate here in Australia will display those traits in a very typically ugly way!
Religious type discussion